00:00:00:00 - 00:00:04:22

[Sound FX: Western weka song]

[Sound FX: ding sound]

00:00:04:22 - 00:00:37:22

Erica

Kia ora! I'm Erica Wilkinson and this is the DOC Sounds of Science podcast.

[intro music]

Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science. Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s, technical experts, scientists, rangers, and the experts in between.

[intro music fading]

Kia ora koutou katoa, hello to you all. I'm thrilled to welcome to the show flora, fauna and deer expert George Ledgard.

00:00:38:05 - 00:00:50:15

Erica

George is a keen hunter and a Technical Advisor at the department. We're talking to him about what it's like to wear both those hats, and to learn about ungulates--starting with what are ungulates? But before that, welcome George.

00:00:50:17 - 00:00:51:23

George

Kia ora Erica.

00:00:52:00 - 00:00:54:08

Erica

Would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?

00:00:54:11 - 00:01:13:23

George

Yeah, tēnā koe. Ko George Ledgard toko ingoa. Ko Mātanga Mātai Te Papa Atawhai. Ko Maukatere te maunga. Ko Rakahuri te awa. Ko Te Anau ahau. No reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa.

00:01:14:00 - 00:01:17:15

Erica

Kia ora! So, first and foremost, what do you do at DOC?

00:01:17:17 - 00:01:23:19

George

I'm a Technical Advisor in the Landscape Threats teams. But principally I advise on wild animals.

00:01:23:20 - 00:01:26:14

Erica

Cool. And did you always want to do this for a job?

00:01:26:15 - 00:01:44:19

George

Sort of. Kind of. Always wanted to live in a place that I was near mountains, particularly in the high country. As a really young child, I remember in the car looking out at helicopters and always saying to my mum I wanted to fly a helicopter. And the sort of backup option was going to be a high-country farm or something like that.

00:01:44:19 - 00:02:06:06

George

But mum, coming from a high-country farm, sort of during the 80s said, that's not a good idea. And they also knew quite a few helicopter pilots, some of whom who died in the industry during the deer recovery days. So they didn't want me to do that either. Naturally ended up in a space where I could, could experience all of those things, in beautiful places.

00:02:06:08 - 00:02:12:08

Erica

Pretty perfect. Now, talking to an ungulate expert, can you tell me, what is an ungulate?

00:02:12:10 - 00:02:26:14

George

Well, basically ungulates are hoofed animals. So anything from a horse, to a tapir, to a tahr, to a goat to a deer. But, interestingly enough, they also include cetaceans, which are whales and dolphins.

00:02:26:16 - 00:02:28:00

Erica

They don't have hooves.

00:02:28:02 - 00:02:41:04

George

No, I know, but they're classed as an ungulate. ... it's probably quite a broad definition for what I deal with in DOC, because obviously we're not dealing with controlling ah cetaceans.

00:02:41:08 - 00:02:46:07

Erica

Wow. That's fascinating. So what is, what's the problem with ungulates?

00:02:46:11 - 00:03:08:15

George

Well, basically, in New Zealand, forests and ecosystems haven't adapted to mammalian tooth browsers. And when we introduced them into New Zealand, they cause large structural and compositional changes in our forest. They eliminate certain species from forests and alpine ecosystems, and strongly modify our vegetation in a way that it's never been pre exposed to. So they are a problem.

00:03:08:15 - 00:03:13:12

George

And when they're unmanaged, they can get into really high numbers. And obviously those problems, they're exacerbated.

00:03:13:17 - 00:03:17:07

Erica

And when were they introduced to New Zealand. Because they're not native.

00:03:17:09 - 00:03:52:04

George

No. So in the- right from the early 1800s or mid 1800s, should I say, they were brought in- sheep, and then acclimatization society’s also brought in a number of species, from deer to moose, which are maybe around in Fiordland, who knows? And also a bunch of animals that never establish, such as, such as zebras and all sorts of weird, wonderful animals were introduced by these societies all during the um, the late 19th century.

00:03:52:06 - 00:04:03:24

Erica

So ... there's a perception that DOC hate deer and that DOC hate deer hunters. In your opinion, as an expert Technical Advisor at DOC, and as a hunter, what would you say the truth is?

00:04:04:04 - 00:04:29:12

George

Oh, definitely not. I mean, many of my colleagues at DOC, we are all interested in hunting and we equally value deer as a resource. It's just when they’re in the wrong place and, and too high numbers and exert those unwanted influences on our forest ecosystem.

We're working alongside hunters, and commercial hunters, and things, [which is] a real key to wild animal management, alongside DOC leading some work as well.

00:04:29:14 - 00:04:34:01

Erica

What's the key thing you wish members of the public knew about ungulate control work?

00:04:34:03 - 00:05:02:09

George

Well ungulate control work led by the department is governed by a bunch of animal welfare rules as well. We're interested in dispatching animals as quickly and as humanely as possible. Equally, as I was saying before, we- nobody likes killing animals, but in order to protect our most vulnerable and threatened species and ecosystems, we have to manage them and by controlling them, using lethal measures, is the only option we have.

00:05:02:09 - 00:05:12:17

Erica

Absolutely. It's like the right species, just in the wrong place. As you said. Um can you tell me about a time you witnessed some of the damage that ungulate browsers have done first hand?

00:05:12:19 - 00:06:07:16

George

Yeah, there’s actually plenty of examples. In Western Fiordland for example, recently I've been over there, we have some offshore islands that are deer free. And I also like to go to the adjacent mainland that has plenty of deer on it. And we're seeing slips, you know, that are caused by natural events such as storms, or earthquakes in Fiordland’s example, that have been prevented from recovering, in terms of the vegetation. It's just not coming through. The trees aren't coming through to grow over those slips. Simply because we've got really high densities of the ungulates, and particularly in this case, red deer, preventing that reestablishment. And equally in montane ecosystems where we have really high numbers of tahr, you can see all the broadleaf tussocks, which really provide that canopy cover over the, the soil and the, you know, the, the other plants that live underneath it.

00:06:07:16 - 00:06:24:07

George

When they’re gone, the whole place is just exposed to increased erosion. Um other pests take advantage of it, such as hares and keep that, that sort of- turn that long stature tussock grassland into a really short stature turf community, which is far less resilient to, you know, disturbance and impacts as well.

00:06:24:09 - 00:06:30:15

Erica

Okay. And what do they ... are they eating the understory, are they trampling it? What are they actually doing?

00:06:30:15 - 00:06:59:20

George

A bit of everything. And it depends on which ungulate we're talking about because we can include pigs in the suite of ungulates that are you know, managing- are managed and cause damage in New Zealand. But for things like our most common ones, which are goats and deer, they're really preventing the regeneration of certain species within our understory. And at really high densities they’re preventing total regeneration, particularly of canopy cover species like mountain beech, which many people are familiar with.

00:06:59:22 - 00:07:26:15

George

And when that stops and you get a windfall or an earthquake knocking over trees and you're not getting that regeneration coming through, that's obviously preventing, or causing a complete change in the structure of the forest from a tall forest into a low stature, sort of shrubland community. And that has knock on effects for not only the the flora composition, but the fauna that, rely on those tall forests to, to exist and as food sources.

00:07:26:17 - 00:07:34:19

Erica

Would you say that if I haven't seen it how it was before, then I can't tell what I'm looking at afterwards or what's happened.

00:07:34:21 - 00:07:56:24

George

Yeah, totally. It's sort of that shifting baseline where, my grandfather saw a forest in a certain state, but I don't see it in that state, so I don't know what it previously looked like. So we have to use things like deer exposures or taking people to offshore islands is a really classic example where suddenly you just see a whole lot of species that you don't see in the adjacent area that might be occupied by ungulates

00:07:56:24 - 00:08:17:05

George

So those, those sort of tools are really useful in explaining to the public, because often you just can't see those subtle differences. Um and particularly after, you know, decades if not hundreds of years of change, you know, what New Zealand forests look like today are completely different to what they looked like to pre-European and even pre-Polynesian arrival.

00:08:18:07 - 00:08:26:05

Erica

And to flip the question – in places we have done control, what are the signs of regeneration?Can you describe what that looks like.

00:08:26:07 - 00:08:51:15

George

Yeah sure. There's certain species in our forest that we like to call ‘ice cream species’ which are really highly preferred by ungulates, deer and goats. They all seem to like the same things. And when you do do control, you start to see those coming through. And as I was saying before, when you've got a forest that's been impacted by ungulates, it's it's really hard necessarily to know what's different from a forest free of ungulates.

00:08:51:15 - 00:09:19:07

George

And often it's not so much it's vastly denser in some instances. Often it is. But you will see these subtle changes of these ice cream species such as broadleaf and three finger coming through. And you'll just see, you’ll just notice the different architecture in the forest, and a different structure, along with that compositional change that occurs when you do remove ungulates and those lovely ice cream species start to come through and flourish again.

00:09:19:09 - 00:09:27:08

Erica

And I've heard people say that deer and goats are just kind of filling the ecological role of moa. What, what do you say to that?

00:09:27:11 - 00:09:47:14

George

It's simply not true. Moa are completely different you know, they have a beak, um and they- and they have basically a bunch of pruning shears, you know, running through the forest, clipping away, like tapering a hedge or something like that versus an ungulate which will rip a whole branch or a leaf off or shoot off right at the ground level.

00:09:47:16 - 00:10:11:21

George

Munch it up, put it into a really complex digestive system and spit it out the other end with no seeds in it, nothing. Whereas moa, you know, we're clipping and pruning these, these, these species which they had involved with over millennia. Um and so moa were, you know, not exerting that, you know, destructive effect. And they had a really simple stomach as well, which allowed the transfer of seeds through it.

00:10:11:21 - 00:10:35:13

George

So that were able to, you know, move around, seed through the forest and, you know, which, you know, is essential for allowing regeneration of different species in different parts of the forest. But furthermore to that, they've actually done a lot of pollen analysis on moa coprolites, which is moa dung, and compared it to deer dung in the same forest ecosystem sites.

00:10:35:13 - 00:11:00:01

George

And obviously those moa were around when forests were unmodified by ungulates. And what those- what the analysis of that pollen revealed that was- there was a whole heap of those ice cream species I referred to before, in the moa coprolite dung. And today we don't see those species and the pollen counts within the deer dung, sort of illustrating that those forests back in the- back when moa were around were far more diverse.

00:11:00:01 - 00:11:18:24

George

Those ice cream species were able to persist and live alongside moa, which you can understand after such a long evolutionary history. And they can't do that today. That’s the simple fact. So yeah, it is, it's chalk and cheese, really. And that arguments just not supported by any actual factual literature.

00:11:19:01 - 00:11:29:17

Erica

Well, thank you for myth busting it. That was fantastic. And while we're myth busting, why can't we just translocate all the deer out of the way?

00:11:29:19 - 00:11:52:04

George

[Because] it's too expensive and we don't really have the means to be able to do it. Um it's very difficult to capture deer. A lot of people were doing it in the 19- late 70s and early 80s, as part of establishing a farm deer venison and industry. But those, those deer and hinds in particular, were worth upwards of $3,000 back then.

00:11:52:04 - 00:12:04:24

George

And so there was massive incentive to be able to try and capture as many deer as possible and they simply couldn't do it back then even. It's, too difficult, too expensive, and we don't really have the tools available to do it.

00:12:05:01 - 00:12:11:09

Erica

Another misconception is that 1080 is killing all the deer. What do you respond to that?

00:12:11:11 - 00:12:32:24

George

It's not killing all the deer. It does achieve a by-kill of deer, and sometimes that’s quite large, but often it's quite low. And there's a bunch of factors that contribute to how much by kill of deer there are. Often it's driven by the time of the year and also the state the deer are in. And if they're really hungry and searching for food they’ll eat enough baits that will kill an animal.

00:12:33:01 - 00:12:54:06

George

But there's also many instances I know of where, it's had a very low bykill. And in fact, in Fiordland, I shoot a number of deer out of 1080 blocks. It certainly hasn't killed them all by any stretch of the imagination. And there are still plenty of deer around in those blocks. But it does have a variable effect based on a bunch of factors.

00:12:54:08 - 00:12:57:10

Erica

And it's just over-reported, I guess?

00:12:57:12 - 00:13:17:20

George

Yeah, it's sort of something that I guess people like to jump on to. It's one of those difficult ones where we can't say ‘no, it doesn't [kill them]’ – [because] it definitely does. But we're not targeting it. And there is oodles of conservation land out there that does not receive 1080. And I guess that’s the really important point.

00:13:17:20 - 00:13:31:12

George

If you don't want to go to a place that- hasn’t had 1080, there's plenty of land out there that is not managed in any way by the department, that is, that you can have access to, to deer or any other ungulate.

00:15:07:01 - 00:15:16:03

Erica

And as a hunter, you would have had a time where you were disappointed to go out and and not find deer. Right? Like it probably happens to everyone. Can you tell us about that?

00:15:16:05 - 00:15:50:15

George

Yeah, ah, plenty of times. Um this year I went out in the roar and had a pretty poor roar. And one of the spots I usually go to, there simply was just not very many deer to be seen. I'm sure they were there, but I just wasn't finding them. Um but I remember as a- I cut my teeth hunting in the early 1990s, and it was very difficult to find deer, you know, we might see 2 or 3 deer in a overnight trip, back then, maybe, if we were lucky to get one of those deer to take home and fill the freezer.

00:15:50:17 - 00:16:13:21

George

... I can go to the same spots now and see 40 or 50 deer, in an evening. And I don't think many people realize how lucky we are at the moment in terms of hunting success rates, how lucky people are, with the amount of deer that are around at the moment without a commercial industry, keeping numbers really low. It's um, it's never been a better time to hunt at the moment.

00:16:13:23 - 00:16:23:03

Erica

And tell me about a time when you were in the field and encountered something so memorable that you've looked at things differently ever since.

00:16:23:05 - 00:16:46:19

George

... I was thinking about this the other day. It's, it's a memory that comes back quite often, and it's around how, the, the raw end of the deal that our native fauna are getting. And this was over in Western Fiordland, I was in a valley called the Cozette Burn. It turns into the Camelot river, in Western Fiordland.

00:16:46:20 - 00:17:08:16

George

And we had been doing some deer browse surveys in there actually, and we were sitting at camp and it was a really miserable 24 hours. The river was up – we were almost on an island. The river had risen so much that we, we couldn't really travel. We knew we were stuck on an island, which is not a great feeling, but we knew the rain was going to, slow down and the river levels were going to drop.

00:17:08:16 - 00:17:31:12

George

So we're just at camp, and a weka ran past. And that's nothing unusual, there’s weka around that part of Fiordland, and then a stoat was chasing it. And so I thought that was pretty interesting. I pointed out to my colleague that was with me. And then about five minutes later, the weka ran past the other direction, and lo and behold, the stoat was running after it.

00:17:31:12 - 00:17:56:05

George

And I was like, jeez. It was five minutes later, so I actually grabbed my rifle and, ran over to the bank and saw the stoat swimming across, the sort of back eddy of the river, obviously chasing the weka still I presume, I never saw the weka. Anyway, I thought that was pretty interesting. And that sort of motivated me to do- to get up and move around and get out of camp.

00:17:56:05 - 00:18:30:20

George

So I grabbed the rifle, um about 20 minutes later and walked about 500m up the river to a bit of a logjam where I could overlook a clearing. Um it was too high to get across to the clearing, but the river was- in Fiordland, rivers drop, literally ten centimetres within an hour. I knew I could get across there if I did see a deer and was able to shoot it. Anyway, I was sitting on top of the log looking at the river, and I heard a rustle behind me, and I saw a glimpse of the weka going through the crown fern, and I sort of looked over and there was a stoat on the weka’s back, latched onto its neck!

00:18:30:22 - 00:18:49:10

George

And the weka ran under a log. And I jumped off the log and actually poked the barrel of my rifle under there the thinking, well, maybe I can shoot the stoat or something. But it was literally a metre away from me hidden under this log with the stoat on its back.

00:18:49:16 - 00:19:09:07

George

And I didn't want to shoot it because I thought I might miss and kill the weka, which is obviously not a great idea. But then by doing that and poking the rifle barrel under there, it’d spooked the weka and the weka had ran off and knocked the stoat off its back as it went under a log. And then the weka ran off and I was like, right.

00:19:09:08 - 00:19:33:10

George

And I pushed it, put a round into the chamber and saw the weka, running around, and there was a big sandy riverbank up in front of me about 25m away. And the weka ran across. And I thought, well, based on experience of the last half an hour, that stoats going to be chasing it. And it ran across the bank and I shot the stoat and the stoat went up in the air, sand went everywhere.

00:19:33:12 - 00:20:00:15

George

And I went over to check out the stoat and um, I went to kick the stoat over and the shot had completely disintegrated its midsection. Um and the stoat flipped over and bit into my shoe, after which I, killed it. And I was just like, holy heck like it was about a 35, 40 minute period of the stoat chasing and then getting on top of the weka.

00:20:00:15 - 00:20:26:12

George

And then eventually I dispatched it. But that really brought home to me that- but actually, I actually felt really kind of sad almost for the stoat, I was like, here's this predator, that’s so determined to kill this, this quite, you know, size of a chicken, basically. And, and then it still had the guts to literally try and latch onto my shoe, when I was trying to dispatch it.

00:20:26:14 - 00:20:46:08

George

And I was just, like, with that amount of determination, I can completely understand why, you know, New Zealand's fauna’s at peril from those real apex, killing machines really. But the determination of the stoat, I was like, fair call man, that's a pretty awesome species to be able to do that.

00:20:46:10 - 00:21:03:11

Erica

I think that story is such a good demonstration of how, how much we do need to help our native species because they're just, they weren't built to survive these predators with claws and teeth. And if it's a fight, native species versus stoats. I'm on native species side. Sorry, guys.

[George makes an agreeing sound]

00:21:04:12 – 00:21:08:17

Erica

What is something that happened in the field that still makes you laugh when you think about it.

00:21:09:03 – 00:22:19:15

George

I was ah, with some friends, and we went up to the Karangarua- oh no, not the Karangarua, the Copland Hut actually. At Welcome Flat hot pools, which is a really popular destination. It was Queen's birthday weekend, and I'd done a lot of work out there, so I threw the rifle in, because I sort of know where there’s a few chamois about up there. And we got to the hut, and there was quite a few people being Queen's birthday weekend. And we we're about to go out for a hunt and another party walked past and they were all- we’d sort of bumped into them earlier. And they were all really keen to go and shoot something, and they were all- had all the latest gear. They're obviously put- investigated a bit of time into their sport in terms of- no, maybe more money than time. Anyway, they went off up the track and my mate and I thought, oh, we'll go and we'll just go past them and go and find a different spot to go.

And I had a, had a creek in mind that I'd been up before and seen a few chamois, and we came around the corner and, had a quiet chuckle to ourselves as we saw these four hunters out in the middle of the, Copland River, taking photos of each other, like sort of posing with their guns, and they were climbing up the bank and posing and taking photos of each other.

00:22:19:15 – 00:23:46:18

George

And we thought, oh we'll leave them to it on their big hunt. And we walked up the river, and only about another ten minutes and walked up a side creek. And then I started to see a little bit of fresh sign. And I told my, told my friend, I said, get your – he had his video camera – I said get your video camera out, I'm pretty sure there's something around here.

And we literally walked about another 30 seconds up the riverbed and a chamois popped out. And I shot it, and I said to him, I said, I think that was actually quite a big chamois. I've shot quite a few chamois and I sort of know what I'm looking at.

And, and as I came over the ridge and saw this animal lying on the ground, it was a really, really big trophy buck, over ten inches in length, which is a, which is, you know, what hunters are after if they're trying to get a chamois to trophy. So we took the meat off it and went back to the hut.

And, I was at the door just cleaning up my gear. And these, these Insta famous Instagram hunters came around the corner and, they said, oh, my God, where'd you get that? And I said, oh, you know where you guys were crossing the river and taking photos of yourself just, just up the creek past there. And they sort of looked at me and I just laughed.

And we carried on having a yarn. And actually, they were really nice chaps, but, but yeah, it was one of those one of those times where you do enough hunting, you get a bit of luck on your side and, and you're able to sort of, maybe, maybe gloat a wee bit in front of some people that thought they might have been-

00:23:45:23 - 00:23:47:09

Erica

That are doing it for the gram.

00:23:47:09 – 00:23:49:08

George

Yeah, yeah.

00:23:49:09 – 00:24:04:11

Erica

Oh that's brilliant.

You work in really remote areas. We talk to lots of different people who work in the field and take different things with them.

Is there an unconventional essential item that you take with you no matter what?

00:24:04:11 – 00:24:27:19

George

I wouldn't say it's unconventional. It's absolutely necessary when you're sharing tents or huts with people, and that's earplugs. Um yeah, man I’ve worked with some horrendous snores, even just if it's a raging river outside your tent or you just don't want to listen to it all night because you get stressed out because you're like, oh, is it going to flood?

00:24:27:19 - 00:24:28:19

Erica

Is it rising? Yeah.

00:24:30:00 - 00:24:47:19

George

Ignorance is bliss when you've got, ear- earplugs in. Um but yeah, I'm a bit of a grumpy field worker if I don't have at least, 7 or 8 hours sleep, or if I have, you know, multiple crap nights in a row. I'm not as convivial as I may otherwise be.

00:24:48:01

Erica

Now for the what's become my favourite segment, our listener questions we ask out on social media and we've got some brilliant ones in for you, George. So first up, you are a Fiordland expert. Have you seen the Fiordland moose?

00:26:46:14 - 00:26:53:19

Erica

Very realistic point of view. What is your favourite flora species and why?

00:26:53:21 - 00:27:40:20

George

It's probably the aciphylla and the aciphylla species, some people call it Spaniard. Um it's a really spiky alpine plant, and it's got, you know, funny names like aciphylla horrida, because it's not the nicest species to brush against, or fall into. Um but I really love them. They've got a really beautiful flower that is protected by spikes all around it, but they are um, really long stem. Some, you know, some of the plants, the base plant – so it sort of looks like a flax, but really spiky, you know – can be up to a meter diameter, if not more. Um and they're just a beautiful plant. Bit of a pain in the ass, but, a beautiful plant nevertheless.

00:27:40:24 - 00:27:46:03

Erica

That's awesome. It's a very unique one. I think the Māori name is taramea as well. Is that the same one?

00:27:46:07 - 00:27:48:22

George

Yeah. Yeah, that's the same one.

00:27:48:24 - 00:27:57:21

Erica

All right. Thank you very much for your listener questions. Now onto our questions again.

How do DOC manage deer?

00:27:57:23 - 00:28:21:24

George

DOC has a- sort of a prioritization system and it looks mainly at the species and the ecosystem values across the country. We want to work in the most important places that are, that are the most vulnerable because simply we've got limited resources. We have to protect those endangered species and ecosystems. Where those ecosystems of species are affected by deer or other wild animals, and, and the management of those animals is important to its success, we will manage it.

00:28:22:05 - 00:28:44:00

George

So that’s places like the Murchison Mountains, for example, we have takahē present, you know, we manage deer in that location to prevent the decline in the preferred takahē food species. So they're not, they're not influenced by a lack of food availability.

00:28:44:02 - 00:29:08:10

George

The department, you know, looks across the country and at those really special places and ecosystems and decides whether it needs ungulate control or not. And we’ll do it if it's necessary and we have the resources to do it. Additionally, which not many hunters disagree with at all, is that we're trying to keep ungulates, um pigs, deer, goats, etc. out of places where they aren't now.

00:29:08:11 - 00:29:35:06

George

So we’re trying to keep those few remaining parts of our- of the public conservation land out there that don't have them – we're trying to keep them out of there so we can preserve those ecosystems and species within those. And it's much easier to keep animals out, than it is to manage them once they’re there, and that's- um the exception is our offshore islands where there are a few offshore islands where we've managed to eradicate deer from.

00:29:35:08 - 00:29:43:24

George

And they're pretty easy to keep out because obviously they don't swim to those islands very often, and they're pretty easy just to keep at zero density or, you know, eradicate them from.

00:29:44:04 - 00:29:48:05

Erica

You said they don't swim to those islands very often. Do they swim to islands?

00:29:48:07 - 00:30:07:09

George

Yeah, they do swim. Deer have hollow hairs. So they've actually got some buoyancy in their pelts or you know, so when they're able to swim, those, those hollow hairs keep them afloat a bit more and they are able to, you know, cross quite large distances, you know, up to a kilometre if they're really keen to get somewhere. And there are places in the Marlborough Sounds where there were deer free islands such as Maud Island and deer have swum over from the mainland, maybe 900m. Or close to a kilometre.

00:31:02:13 - 00:31:26:04

Erica

We're not even at the nature mind blown fact yet. And I think we've just blown my mind. That's incredible. I had no idea about that. Um you mentioned before, things that hunters agree with. How do we get the balance right between hunting and conservation? Sometimes, they seem to be really opposite ends of the spectrum. What do you say about that?

00:31:26:06 - 00:31:52:18

George

Well, with the knowledge that um, the department has finite resources and it has to manage, you know, it manages its most threatened and endangered ecosystems and species, alongside containing the expansion of wild animals. Um it suddenly- you start to look at maps and it's actually a large area of public conservation land that doesn't receive any ungulate management.

00:31:52:20 - 00:32:17:10

George

And the real control in those spaces, it comes from the commercial recovery sector, which is in the doldrums a little bit at the moment, and comes from recreational hunters. So there's a large, large proportion of public conservation land that I don't think there are any clashes with, with hunters over. I think the, you know, deer and other ungulates are largely unmanaged in those spaces.

00:32:17:12 - 00:32:44:07

George

So I actually think that, the, the recreational hunting sector, as it has done in places like Fiordland with the Wapiti Foundation, can play an active role in protecting some of these areas and at least keeping animals at a density that aren't resulting in those really massive structural changes in the forest where we're getting, you know, the conversion of tall forests and low stature, shrubland through regenerate and being prevented.

00:32:44:07 - 00:33:09:24

George

So I think there is actually more space, or more work to be done that involves and engages, recreational hunters as well, that can be complementary to the places where DOC need to manage them to really low densities, which isn't as complementary to to what hunters want. So I think there's plenty of room for everything out there. All management styles, and I think, um hunters, can play a really proactive role in that.

00:33:10:01 - 00:33:14:19

Erica

And there's a commercial element to hunting, too. Would you explain how that plays in.

00:33:14:21 - 00:33:37:01

George

Yeah. I mean, the commercial sector in the past has shown that, putting a value on a wild animal can really lower its numbers and have really good ecological benefits as well. So I think the commercial sector plays a vital role. And some of those hunter-led management projects that- projects that we see, the control is not actually done by the recreational hunters.

00:33:37:01 - 00:34:14:22

George

They just go in there to get the trophies and enjoy the experience. The control is often done by commercial recovery operators that work in partnership with the group managing that site. So I think, commercial, you know, having a value, um on wild animal products and meat, etc, is really important aspect to good management of our forests and ecosystems. Not only from a recreational hunter perspective, but obviously from DOC’s perspective, and maintaining those what we call lands held for, you know, for the public, because our job is to try and protect those ecosystems and species.

00:34:14:22 - 00:34:44:07

George

It is there to offer recreational hunting opportunities, etc.. but in a well-managed situation where we're not going to have over abundant ungulates that are gonna result in skinny deer, that hunters don't want, low quality trophies that hunters don't want, and stuffed native ecosystems which nobody wants. So I think, you know, there's plenty of room to move in that space, utilizing commercial and recreational hunters alongside, you know, DOC lead control, and other agencies as well.

00:34:44:07 - 00:34:47:15

George

They are other agencies they want to protect their ngahere as well.

00:34:47:17 - 00:35:03:04

Erica

Awesome. It's all about partnership. And yeah, you're right, our job is to protect ecosystems and species at the end of the day. Do you always hunt from the ground or are there aerial kind of aspects of this?

00:35:03:06 - 00:35:26:08

George

Yeah. The department does ground and aerial hunting. And that really depends on the environment you're working with. For example tahr management, cos tahr live out in open alpine ecosystems and in very remote and rugged places. You know aerial control is the most cost-effective way of doing it. Um there is some ground control in areas, catchments that are forest covered.

00:35:26:14 - 00:35:45:00

George

You know, this is for tahr, and the same applies to deer. It depends on what habitat you're trying to manage the species in. If it's forest, generally we're relying on ground hunters and ground hunters with dogs. If it's open habitat it's often a lot quicker and more efficient to use, utilise helicopters and, you know, the airborne technologies.

00:35:45:00 - 00:36:00:08

George

And at the end of the day, we, we are, responsible to the government and the taxpayer by choosing the most efficient and effective methods possible. We'll choose whatever the most efficient and effective method is for the landscape and the species. We're trying to work with.

00:36:00:10 - 00:36:05:08

Erica

Now, sometimes carbon is a really hot topic in the hunting space. Can you tell us about that? Explain that a bit.

00:37:21:11 - 00:37:46:11

George

... There's sort of, a couple of, I guess you could say debates occurring in that sector. Does- do wild animals reduce carbon levels in our forests and does wild animal control, promote, promote the generation of carbon? And what's the carbon cost of doing that wild animal control? Because as I was talking about earlier, we use helicopters and you know, which are carbon hungry machines to run.

00:37:46:13 - 00:38:19:01

George

Trying to understand those elements is relatively complex and tricky. we don't have many examples of where we've had really intensive animal control operations that have promoted the regeneration of carbon, with the exception of some of our island eradication, etc. And at some of our intensively managed sites. So it is- the debate, or the- I wouldn't say it's a debate, it's more about the science to understand that problem, is still in its infancy.

00:38:19:07 - 00:38:44:08

George

However, I can say from personal experience I have seen instances of, places in the forest where, when wind has blown down a large section, like maybe an acre of forest or on a on the western coast of Fiordland, as I was saying earlier, where we've seen a big slip down into the ocean and the regeneration of those tall, woody species like our beech trees, and that, it’s been completely prevented.

00:38:44:10 - 00:39:09:01

George

And there are anecdotes of that up in the central North Island as well, in the Raukumara and obviously Cyclone Gabrielle came through and caused a lot of damage there, and the real interest is, is are those key woody species that provide that protective skin over the, over our landscapes – is that able to regenerate? And obviously the larger the tree, the more carbon it has.

00:39:09:01 - 00:39:33:05

George

So that's really important thing to understand. We've also got to add in possums as well because deer prevent regeneration from the ground up. But possums will come in over the top and they'll be, they’ll be killing trees from the top down. So it's, it's broader than just deer. It's broader than just goats. It's that whole system and the impact that animal browsers have on it and whether that's causing wholesale declines in carbon or not.

00:39:33:07 - 00:39:51:22

George

My view is, is that at really high densities, is, it probably does. But we actually do need a bit, a bit more, data to support the argument either way. And we also need to understand how much it costs to get rid of those ungulates to be able to promote the regeneration of those species.

00:39:51:24 - 00:39:55:23

Erica

And is that work to gather that data being done?

00:39:56:00 - 00:40:11:22

George

Yeah, it is by the Department, and Te Uru Rākau, the New Zealand Forest Service, um yeah. There are multiple- Manaaki Whenua, Landcare Research – there are multiple agencies interested in answering this question. So there is work being undertaken at the moment on it.

00:40:11:24 - 00:40:18:13

Erica

What is something about nature that blew your mind when you learned it?

00:40:18:15 - 00:40:56:07

George

Um, one was- I actually mentioned earlier, like 2.5 million moa in New Zealand is just phenomenal. And, I had heard stories about, the, the gold fields in Central Otago, how gold miners used to go around and collect moa bones and burn them in their fires, cos that was there only source of wood, and other traders that would come out and sell vegetables, etcetera, etcetera, to the miners out in Central Otago would back load out dry loads of moa bones that they’d grind up and use as fertiliser in their market gardens.

00:40:56:09 - 00:41:20:01

George

00:41:46:13 - 00:42:18:11

George

Imagine wandering around with, with a dozen cricket balls in your throat, along with a bunch of pebbles there, just to grind up this plant matter that you were eating all day. So, you know, some of these- trying to, trying to imagine what New Zealand looked like, you know, prior to human arrival with, Haast eagles around and moa quite, you know, ubiquitous throughout the landscape is, is a pretty phenomenal kind of. Yeah, it's it's a bit mind bending in some respects.

00:42:18:13 - 00:42:33:12

Erica

Yeah, absolutely. I, I've heard you say that one of your missions in life is to make people more aware of the loss that we're facing, that kind of segues well. Can you tell me about what that means to you?

00:42:33:14 - 00:43:13:06

George

From a, from an ungulate management perspective, it it's talking about, making our, you know, native ecosystems resilient to change. And as we know, in the face of climate change, we're going to see more extreme events that are going to damage our forests, our ngahere, and our alpine ecosystems. Now they're far more resilient if they can maintain that structural integrity, along with, you know, that that blanket of, whether it be tall tussocks, or whether it be, you know, a complex overstory of, of, trees to prevent you know, rain, erosion, etcetera, etcetera, to help bind the soil together, to help slips and things like that.

00:43:13:08 - 00:43:43:03

George

Now that can happen with ungulates present, but only present at moderate to low levels in the landscape. And what I'm really worried about at the moment is just that increasing number of ungulates, around the ngahere that is, preventing that, that regeneration even of those less ice creamy, like more just standard bread and butter species, coming through and replacing the canopy and providing that protective layer over our soils and landscapes.

00:43:43:03 - 00:44:09:24

George

And that's what my big worry is, is that that we risk it sort of turning into something like Central Otago, where you've lost all your tussocks, through pastoralism and fire and burning, etc. and you're now dealing with just straight higher aecium, you know, low diversity landscapes. And that's what I want people to understand that with, with no management, that's the road we're heading down and alongside that are those potential carbon consequences as well.

00:44:10:01 - 00:44:34:12

George

So that's the that's the big one is just to understand that, yes, we can have ungulates, but um- and in areas where DOC doesn't prioritise, you know, it for conservation purposes that, they're allowed to be there, but in really high numbers, it's going to provide problems for all of us, for the agricultural sector, for our streams and waterways, you know, municipal water takes, etcetera, etcetera.

00:44:34:12 - 00:44:49:10

George

So it's really just about understanding that it's not it's not all or nothing. There can be, middle ground in terms of, having ungulates in the landscape, but at higher levels, none of us want that.

00:44:49:12 - 00:44:55:07

Erica

00:45:50:08 - 00:46:07:05

Erica

I think you’ve said it really well. Thank you so much for coming in today and for myth busting, all of this stuff to do with hunting, and teaching us about flora being the architecture of the city. I might go and get that tattooed now. I think that's the coolest. Thanks George.

00:46:07:07 - 00:46:10:08

George

No problem. Mā te wā.

[outro music] 

00:46:10:10 -Erica

Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Erica Wilkinson, and this has been the DOC Sounds of Science podcast.  This show is available wherever you get your podcasts or you can stream it off our website doc.govt.nz.  This show is produced by Jayne Ramage with editing by Lucy Holyoake. If you enjoyed this episode, show us some love with a five star rating.  [outro music fades] 

[Sound FX: Western weka song] 

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:04:22 

[Sound FX: Fiordland crested penguin/tawaki splashing in pool, and making honking sound] 

[Sound FX: ding sound] 

00:00:04:22 - 00:00:37:22 
[Erica] 
Kia ora! I'm Erica Wilkinson and this is the DOC Sounds of Science podcast. 

[intro music] 
Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science. Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s, technical experts, scientists, rangers, and the experts in between.  

Kia ora koutou katoa, hello to you all. Today we're talking to one of our technical advisors who takes her work home with her in a really literal sense, Cassie Mealey.  

00:00:37:24 - 00:00:47:18 
[Erica] 
Some people knit. Some people rebuild old cars or follow a sports team. Cassie rehabilitates penguins in her backyard. Hi, Cassie. 

00:00:47:20 - 00:00:49:00 
[Cassie] 
Hello, Erica. 

00:00:49:02 - 00:00:53:14 
[Erica] 
Welcome to the show. Would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?

00:00:53:16 - 00:01:03:03 
[Cassie] 
Kia ora, ko Cassie, ahau. Ko Mātanga Mātai, Hauropi tāku mahi. 
Hi I’m Cassie and I'm a Technical Advisor for Terrestrial Fauna. 

00:01:03:05 - 00:01:09:19 
[Erica] 
Kia ora! Now, my first question is, what does a Technical Advisor, Fauna do at DOC?  

00:01:09:21 - 00:01:39:20 
[Cassie] 
A variety of things. a few of us are specialized in certain fauna, like invertebrates or bats or lizards. For me, I've specialized in being a generalist, which I quite like. So I work across all these things. So bats, lizards and birds. I provide guidance to the department, on their conservation programs or on permits to handle and capture wildlife for research or development and also give advice on managing fauna for resource consents, that kind of thing. 

00:01:39:22 - 00:01:44:08 
[Erica] 
And when you say fauna, can you tell me what's the difference between flora and fauna? 

00:01:44:10 - 00:01:52:14 
[Cassie] 
So when you think of flora, think floral or flowers and that's a plant. And then fauna is animals. 

00:01:52:16 - 00:01:57:21 
[Erica] 
So what does an average day look like for you? It sounds like there's a lot of variety in that. 

00:01:57:23 - 00:02:14:20 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, true. It can be very varied. So in the field season or a summer season, when animals are out and about, we're looking to monitor them. So it could be a helicopter to the top of a mountain range in Haast, dropped off looking for a kiwi or its chicks or its eggs, just to make sure it's all healthy. 

00:02:14:22 - 00:02:37:21 
[Cassie] 
Ah I could be, stomping around in the swamp for five days looking for really endangered lizards. Or I could be waking up at 3:30 in the morning to go catch some bats. So, that's my field days. And then on- the winter, I guess, time – or the downtime in between field days – I'm at my desk. reviewing a lot of reports, writing reports and giving advice on other things. 

00:02:37:23 - 00:02:47:10 
[Erica] 
Wow. And waiting until the summer time comes when you can get out there again.  
[Cassie] 
Pretty much. 
[Erica] 
Awesome. And how did you come to be at DOC? How did you get here? 

00:02:47:12 - 00:02:47:23 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. Well, I'm a bit of an import, I'm a vagrant from Australia who's naturalized in New Zealand. 

00:02:55:14 - 00:03:13:05 
[Cassie] 
I quite like it here. It's cool, but it's very different. But I started off doing conservation work in Australia. Dabbled in mostly birds and waders. And then I went to Mauritius and spent some time there working with all sorts of things, lizards and birds. Which, coincidentally, they have a similar setup to New Zealand. It’s an island. 

00:03:13:06 - 00:03:34:12 
[Cassie] 
They never had any native, native mammals besides bats. Um and they've got a similar stoat like predator. So it's a really interesting concept, so I was there for a bit working with, those kind of creatures and then I came to, try something else, and I was thinking about keeping that kind of warm latitude of, like, tropical. 

00:03:34:14 - 00:03:40:19 
[Cassie] 
I was thinking maybe I’d go to Costa Rica, and I applied for a few jobs around the world, and I got the one in Haast, and I was like… oh… 

00:03:40:19 - 00:03:46:19 
[Cassie] 
Don’t know about this. But I actually really loved it.  

00:03:46:19 - 00:03:48:13 
[Erica] 
Oh, wow. And you’ve just come from the Mauritius and okay. 

00:03:48:13 - 00:03:50:10 
[Cassie] 
Yeah.  
[Erica] 
Very different situations. 

00:03:50:10 - 00:03:53:03 
[Cassie] 
Warm waters. Yeah. 

00:03:53:05 - 00:03:54:16 
[Erica] 
What an experience. 

00:03:54:18 - 00:04:01:06 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the two magic words that got me here were, helicopters and jet boats and kiwi, and I was like, I can do that. 

00:04:01:08 - 00:04:02:08 
[Cassie] 
I'll be there. 

00:04:02:10 - 00:04:15:11 
[Erica] 
And now look at your role. That's amazing. It sounds like you get to do that all the time. So what, what kind of things would you think would be the same across countries in terms of conservation, that just wasn't? Are there any examples like that? 

00:04:15:13 - 00:04:36:03 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, I think the one that's really stuck to me is lizards. So I worked with lizards in Australia. And, you know, they come from typically hot, dry climates, they lay eggs. They do all the normal lizard-y things. I come to New Zealand and they're so weird. They're very different. They live in cold, wet places like Fiordland. 

00:04:36:05 - 00:04:51:18 
[Cassie] 
They live in the snow, in the alpine zone. They don't, they don't lay eggs. They give birth to life young, like mammals there. It's so strange here. And they, they can have pregnancies that last over multiple years. They can live up to like 50. It's so weird, but it's great. 

00:04:51:19 - 00:04:52:20 
[Cassie] 
I love it. 

00:04:52:22 - 00:04:55:17 
[Erica] 
Can we go back to the pregnancies slowing down, what was that? 

00:04:55:23 - 00:04:59:15 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. So. 

00:04:59:17 - 00:05:17:17 
[Cassie] 
The lizards that live in the alpine zone. So we’ve got quite a few alpine geckos. They live in cold temperatures, and so their pregnancies appear to last for over two years, which is quite a long time. Usually it's only a few weeks.  
[Erica] 
Nope. 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. You're like, no, this is not for me. I'm not signing up. 

00:05:17:19 - 00:05:21:05 
[Erica] 
Do not bring me back as a lizard. 
[Cassie]
Yeah, yeah. 

00:05:21:07 - 00:05:42:07 
[Cassie] 
I don't know how I do it either, but, we think that kind of go into like a, a torpor like- over winter, which a few other animals do where their like, heart rate slows down, the metabolism slows down so that development of the embryo would slow down too, that kind of goes into a stasis where, you know, the pause button is pressed, and then when they come back into summer spring, it'll start developing again.

00:05:42:09 - 00:05:49:00 
[Cassie] 
But it's just it's crazy, 2 years pregnancy and they can give birth to multiple young at once. Live. 

00:05:49:02 - 00:05:51:02 
[Erica] 
Oh my gosh. Tiny little lizards. 

00:05:51:04 - 00:05:55:02 
[Cassie] 
Tiny little lizards. Just born, running around instantly. 

00:05:54:18 - 00:05:58:13 
[Erica] 
And have you always done wildlife rehabilitation? 

00:05:58:13 - 00:06:25:07 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. I started off in Australia working with a wonderful person who does all the rehab down there in Melbourne. We did all sorts of things. We get little blue penguins there too. So, penguins and bats and birds and frogs and lizards, so we did all sorts of stuff, which was really cool. But I think my mum will tell you that I've been bringing stuff home since I could walk and catch things so, so I just, I'm just, like, more qualified. 

00:06:27:03 - 00:06:29:02 
[Erica] 
You know what it's called now?  

00:06:29:04 - 00:06:42:24 
[Erica]
Now I know a bit about your work with Haast kiwi and penguins, but I know that's also the tip of the iceberg. What are some of the other native species that you've rehabilitated since you were able to walk? 

00:06:43:01 - 00:06:46:02 
[Cassie] 
Well, in New Zealand or around the world? What are we talking about here? 

00:06:46:02 - 00:06:50:15 
[Erica]
Oh, I'm going to choose New Zealand to start. And then maybe, maybe go global. 

00:06:50:18 - 00:07:10:21 
[Cassie] 
Cool. so in New Zealand, we get things like, kāhu or harrier hawks, the Australasian harrier come through and that often happens from what seems to be like a car strike. So you often see them feeding on a dead animal on the road, a carcass. And they have a bit of trouble taking off. 

00:07:10:21 - 00:07:29:04  
[Cassie] 
They can't take off that fast. So if people aren't slowing down, there’s kind of that slow motion of the bird just struggling to take off, and sometimes they carry on, like the thing it's eating will get stuck in its claws. And it's gotta drag this dead possum or something with it. And so it's quite slow and, gentle take off and then the cars might come through and just collect it. 

00:07:29:04 - 00:07:34:00 
[Cassie] 
So we get, fractured bones through that and some other injuries. So yeah. 

00:07:34:02 - 00:07:41:09
[Erica]
What can we do to stop- like should we slow down if we see a hawk with roadkill on the road? Like, what should we do? 

00:07:41:11 - 00:08:00:16 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, ideally slow down, yeah, yeah. Just give it some time and some space to take off. Just be aware of what direction it's taking off too. Some people, if they've run over an animal, will get out of the car and take it off the side of- off to the side of the road, which is really good, so that there's no harriers feeding on the road, but they can feed on the side of the road. 

00:08:00:18 - 00:08:12:07 
[Erica]
Okay. All right. So that kind of yeah- only if you can obviously – if you're on a motorway and things and you can't do that safely- okay. What else have you rehabilitated? 

00:08:12:09 - 00:08:20:08 
[Cassie] 
I think one of the funny ones are drunk kererū that come through, the wood pigeon.  
[Erica]
What?!
[Cassie] 
Have you heard of this? 

00:08:20:13 - 00:08:24:16 
[Erica]
I mean, I've seen articles, I guess, but tell me about it. 

00:08:24:18 - 00:08:45:17 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, right. So these- at a certain time of year kererū will be feeding on really, really ripe fruit. And if they have enough ripe fruit in their, crop, which is like their pre-stomach, they just kind of fill up their pre-stomach with all this beautiful ripe fruit. And they sit in the sun and in the warm of the sun, the crop just kind of ferments the fruit and it turns into alcohol. 

00:08:45:19 - 00:08:49:21 
[Cassie] 
And they just get a little bit steamy. 

00:08:49:22 - 00:08:52:24 
[Erica]
Oh, no. Is it dangerous for them? 

00:08:53:01 - 00:09:07:19 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. Well, they can, fall out of trees, they can't really fly very well. So I guess the risk is when they're falling out of trees or ending up on the ground, they can't take off again. They can come into contact with predators. Dogs, cats, stoats, that kind of thing. 

00:09:07:21 - 00:09:15:16 
[Erica]
Okay. So what's, what's the rehab that you do there, is it, like- I don't think we do stomach pumps anymore? What do you do? 

00:09:15:18 - 00:09:30:04 
[Cassie] 
No. Well, I'll, give them fluids, which involves putting a tube down the back of their throat into their crop. Giving them some fluids that way. So rehydrating, rest, recovery, checking them for injury, that kind of thing. 

00:09:30:06 - 00:09:31:23 
[Erica]
Wow. Okay. 

00:09:32:03 - 00:09:36:15 
[Erica]
Any other wildlife you want to tell us about rehabilitating? 

00:09:36:17 - 00:09:57:00 
[Cassie] 
It just really depends. I mostly deal with penguins and sea birds. So we get, every year, we get the Westlad petrel on the West Coast here, where they, the juveniles, are taking off for their first flight. And they seem to get really distracted by the big lights in the main city areas, and they end up what we call, becoming grounded. 

00:09:57:03 - 00:10:14:12 
[Cassie] 
So they fly down to the ground. We're not quite sure what's happening there, but we think they navigate by like the stars or the moon. And so they’re kind of drawn to the light and that draws them down to the ground. And then they end up hitting the ground and these birds have these massive wings and they can't take off from the ground. 

00:10:14:14 - 00:10:30:01 
[Cassie] 
They can't push off. So, we end up collecting a whole bunch of, Westland petrol, or tāiko, for about two weeks every year after they've just fledged, and are flying off and we have to help them back up to, to a higher place to gain flight again.  

00:10:30:03 - 00:10:37:23 
[Erica]
Oh, good on you. Ah you've worked with kea as well, right? What's the most amazing thing you've seen kea do? 

00:10:38:00 - 00:10:56:23 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. Kea are super intelligent. I quite like them. And they're amazing to watch. I, I was doing a kea catching trip one time, helping out with the kea team, who are amazing at what they do and incredibly fit walking up these mountains every day. But I was up this mountain with them. We were trying to catch some kea. 

00:10:57:00 - 00:11:13:21 
[Cassie] 
We had this, kea catching mat out, which is a bit of mat with a really fun, funky thing in the middle that really attracts kea. They really love novel things, usually, and on the mat we've got a whole of, kind of knots or nooses to try and catch them in so they might walk through and get their leg caught in a noose, and that's how we catch them. 

00:11:13:23 - 00:11:39:13 
[Cassie] 
And so we were sitting there, we saw this kea flying around, and we got our bino’s out, and binoculars, and looked up and we could see it had a leg band on. So it had been caught before and had been banded. And they don't normally get caught twice, but this one landed right by the net and proceeded to sidestep every noose knot that was on the mat and then pull it closed with its beak, just pulling the knots closed, and then it flew off. 

00:11:39:15 - 00:11:46:05 
[Cassie] 
That is clever! Has it been watching the other ones and being like “oh, Barry, what are you doing?” 

00:11:46:07 - 00:11:54:16 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, “not again Bazza!” Yeah, he must have just remembered, I don't know. 

00:11:54:18 - 00:12:00:22 
[Erica] 
Yeah. And what's the worst, the worst thing that you've seen a kea do? 

00:12:00:24 - 00:12:23:18 
[Cassie] 
Ah, kea get into all sorts of mischief, but I think the worst thing for them would be, eating lead. And this is lead from, carcasses that have been shot, or from of led flashings or nails in huts and houses. And – I hope no one's eaten lead – but for a bird, it's quite sweet tasting. 

00:12:23:18 - 00:12:40:03 
[Cassie] 
And it's quite a flexible metal. So, I imagine it's quite fun to play with and it's tasty, so they get amongst it all and, have a bit of a chew, and that ends up with lead poisoning in kea. So the lead gets into the bloodstream and you might see some wobbly kea around. They can't fly very good. 

00:12:40:05 - 00:12:55:07 
[Cassie] 
They’re often emaciated. And that can be due to the lead poisoning and it can be quite a slow thing. So sometimes we get kea handed in with the lead poisoning and the best thing we can do for them, and we can cure it, which is great if we catch it early enough.  

00:12:55:07 - 00:13:29:07 
[Cassie] 
So, we've got a few wildlife hospitals here that are amazing, like the South Island Wildlife Hospital and the Dunedin Wildlife Hospital, that will do this thing called chelation therapy, which takes the lead out of the bloodstream. So just lie the kea down, put a vein in its, wing and, insert this chemical into the bloodstream, which clings on to the lead in the blood, and that makes its way- this combined, now molecule, makes its way out through the urine of the bird. It's just excreted, in its pee. 

00:13:29:09 - 00:13:45:13 
[Erica] 
That sounds like an incredible discovery. Wicked. I’m so glad that's happening. Now, we said up top that you rehabilitate penguins in your backyard. Can we talk a bit about that? What, what is it that you're doing in your spare time? 

00:13:45:15 - 00:14:05:07 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. So, it's one of my favourite things to do. Although it's a lot of hard work, is a lot of poo, a lot of fish, a lot of stinky stuff. But it's all worth it when you can release a penguin on the beach. So walking through the process, I guess when I, when a bird comes in, a penguin, I'll go through a physical assessment. 

00:14:05:07 - 00:14:29:03 
[Cassie] 
So, checking for any injuries, any internal/external signs of injury that I can see, we'll check for dehydration, give it an assessment of body condition to see if it's really skinny or if it's too fat or what's going on. And then the first step is always to give it fluids. So I think a lot of people out there think that the best thing you can do for an injured animal is to feed it. 

00:14:29:05 - 00:14:47:14 
[Cassie] 
That's actually the worst thing you can do. What can happen is that, if they have been dehydrated and haven't eaten for a while, the organs start to shut down. And if they're really dehydrated, they're missing the key electrolytes. And when you put food in their stomach, it kickstarts that organ again.  

00:14:47:14 - 00:15:06:22 
[Cassie] 
But it draws all the electrolytes from their body, that is like keeping their heart going, that sort of thing – and their brain – to their stomach. And then that can just really cause organ failure left, right and centre. And it's not a good outcome. So, what I do, and this is why we should really get animals to care as soon as possible. We get them fluids first, for the first 24 hours or two days. 

00:15:06:24 - 00:15:24:06 
[Cassie] 
Get their potassium levels and electrolyte levels back up to, to normal, and then we can start slowly reintroducing food because they haven't eaten for a while, right. So we're not going to just give them a solid piece of fish or whatever. So we'll start with some, some fish broth and then maybe go to like, a fish, smoothie. 

00:15:24:06 - 00:15:33:10 
[Cassie] 
So this is where my blender gets a little yucky with all the fish that I drop in there and just whizzes it up. My house stinks, for the whole time I’ve got a penguin. 

00:15:33:12 - 00:15:34:21 
[Erica] 
For the greater good. 

00:15:34:23 - 00:16:05:06 
[Cassie] 
Oh, yeah, totally for the greater good. Yeah. And then also introduce solid bits of fish after that. And then a whole fish, to fatten them up. Yeah. So it's quite a process. We go from physical assessment to fluids to reintroducing food. We'll have them on pain relief and medication straight away. And then once we get them fattened up and ripe, we're going to put them in the pool and do some swim training and make sure that they're strong enough, fit enough to go back in the wild. 

00:16:05:08 - 00:16:07:05 
[Erica] 
You do swimming training with penguins? 

00:16:07:05 - 00:16:24:14 
[Cassie] 
Swimming training. Yeah. So I've got a- I've got a pool in my backyard. It's kind of like a Kmart blue kind of set up pool that you can buy, for your kids, and your family, you know, I just put in my back yard for my penguin and plop her in there and then she goes for a swim. 

00:16:24:16 - 00:16:26:24 
[Cassie] 
Loves it. Loves it. Yeah. 

00:16:26:24 - 00:16:36:07 
[Erica] 
Okay now, before everyone goes to Kmart gets a pool and goes and looks for penguins, do you need a permit to do this? Do you need training to do this? Can I do it, please? 

00:16:36:09 - 00:16:55:19 
[Cassie] 
Um really we want people to, be qualified. It's quite a process. We're talking about fluids, and we can give those with, injections or with tubes down their throat, so it's quite risky. And there's a risk of aspirating if you try and give the food the wrong way, so breathing in the fluid, fluid into the lungs as opposed to into the stomach. 

00:16:55:19 - 00:17:14:02 
[Cassie] 
So it’s quite finicky. So really want, a trained person to be doing this and also the same for physical assessments and that sort of thing. And, so I've been doing this for over five years now, between Australia and New Zealand. And I've got a whole team of people who support me, and I'm still learning, like I still feel like I don't know much. 

00:17:14:02 - 00:17:34:14 
[Cassie] 
And so I’m constantly referring to other rehabilitators, I'm part of WReNNZ. So the Wildlife Rehabilitation Network of New Zealand, I'm in contact with vets around New Zealand who specialize in wildlife care. So I'm always on the phone to them checking that what I'm doing is okay, or sending animals to them for specialized care. So it's really quite an involved process. 

00:17:34:14 - 00:17:47:05 
[Cassie] 
And I encourage people to, to get this training and volunteer. If you're really interested, please give it a go. It's great fun, a lot of work, but great fun and really rewarding. But, it definitely needs some expertise. 

00:17:47:16 - 00:17:57:14 
[Erica] 
Yeah so just to emphasize, no, you can't do it without a permit and training. Cassie is an authorized rehabilitator. Stop going and finding penguins by yourself, audience, please. 

00:17:57:16 - 00:18:00:11 
[Cassie] 
But if you do, hand them to me.  

00:18:00:17 - 00:18:04:19 
[Erica] 
Or call Cassie. Or the South Island Wildlife Hospital. Yeah, they do great work as well. 

00:18:04:21 - 00:18:09:20 
[Erica] 
Now, tell us about the most recent penguin rescue that you did. 

00:18:09:22 - 00:18:16:13 
[Cassie] 
All right, so this was a tawaki, a Fiordland crested penguin. So they're my favourite. So these are the- 

00:18:16:15 - 00:18:19:08 
[Erica] 
Are you allowed to have favourites? 

00:18:19:10 - 00:18:40:22 
[Cassie] 
Ah… yes... Just between us. And so, so they're like, about 60cm tall, they're black and white. They look like they're wearing a tuxedo. So a black back, that white front, and they've got these awesome yellow eyebrows that stick out from their heads, which kind of makes them look a little bit angry at the same time. 

00:18:40:24 - 00:19:00:20 
[Cassie] 
And every penguin has its own personality that comes in, and it's just so much fun learning about them. Like, their likes, their dislikes, their personality. So the last one I had, we named Odette and, I had her for about, five weeks, all up. So she came in- she was just found about 100m from my house on the beach, just sitting there looking, not the greatest. 

00:19:00:20 - 00:19:26:23 
[Cassie] 
And so we brought her in, did a health check on her, and she was dehydrated and, very skinny, underweight, and, had lost all her waterproofing in her feathers. So the penguins have a super cool oil gland, the back of their body round their bum. And they will get this with a beak, and they'll rub this, oil all through the feathers when they preening. 

00:19:27:00 - 00:19:48:02 
[Cassie] 
But when they're getting really sick or unwell or dehydrated or skinny that just kind of stops working. The glands shut down. They're not preening as much. They don’t have enough energy to do that, and they lose their waterproofing coating. And I mean, if you've been swimming in the ocean out here, it's pretty cold around these waters. So, to get soaked to the to the skin and to the bone would be really damaging for them. 

00:19:48:02 - 00:20:10:21 
[Cassie] 
So, we took her in. She came back to my, let's call it a ‘penguin haven’ with, with the pool and an enclosure. And, we fixed her up, so we did that whole journey of doing the fluid therapy, physical assessment, feeding her up with, fish broth and our stinky fish smoothies, and then solid fish. 

00:20:10:23 - 00:20:26:16 
[Cassie] 
And so I'm going out and, like, catching fish in the rivers to feed her. They can eat, they can eat a lot. Like so she can weigh up to four kilos. Yeah. And she could be eating 800g of fish a day, which is almost a kilo of fish a day. It's a lot of work. 

00:20:26:18 - 00:20:36:03 
[Erica] 
Well, I guess she was hungry as well. Like she’s- it’s been a while, right. She's making up for lost time. I have to ask, what do your neighbours think? 

00:20:36:05 - 00:20:55:03 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, right. So actually, I haven't discussed this with them, but I know that they probably can smell the, the penguin poo, the fish. They could probably hear her doing her squawks. I don't know what they think, to be honest. But I I'm glad I haven't had any complaints. 

00:20:55:05 - 00:20:57:10 
[Erica] 
No noise control yet. 

00:20:57:10 - 00:21:21:24 
[Cassie] 
No, I do feel bad for people walking past my house. Like, even on the street. Walking past. You get this whiff of bird/penguin/seabird smell mixed with fish. It's, it's kinda dank, dirty smell. It's bad, but, I'm terribly used to it at the time. So when I have friends over, I'm just like. I'm so sorry. 

00:21:22:04 - 00:21:34:02 
[Erica] 
Ah I wonder if they know that you've got penguins. And that's what you do. What's something that you learned about penguins, from having them just hanging out in your backyard, that you would never have learned otherwise? 

00:21:34:04 - 00:21:56:21 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. The first thing I noticed, which was obvious, but at the same time, mind blowing, because I hadn't thought about it before. But wild animals have never counted- encountered, or don't usually encounter, a full physical boundary. So putting her in my penguin enclosure, she just went around the whole way around, tapping it, pecking it, kicking and being like, there must be a hole in here somewhere that I can get out of. 

00:21:56:21 - 00:22:11:15 
[Cassie] 
And then she’d go around, and she'd start jumping up higher. It must be up high that I can get out. And then I could just see her thinking about, like, what's going on here. And then I would, like, come into her enclosure through the door. But she had never seen a door before. Right. So to her, I'm just appearing in her cage. 

00:22:11:15 - 00:22:25:08 
[Cassie] 
She's like, where did you come from? And she'd like, go behind me and try and figure out, where did you come from? There's a hole in here, there's a hole in here somewhere. And it took her about four days to figure out how a door worked. But then she got it. She’s so smart. The same thing happened when I, put her in the pool. 

00:22:25:08 - 00:22:38:07 
[Cassie] 
And so she like being in the ocean, right? There's always a way out. You go deeper. Or you go north, or you go south or you go back onto the land. And so I put in pool and she's like diving down. She's like, I'll just get out this way. And then she kind of hits the barrier. And just like, oh no. 

00:22:38:07 - 00:22:44:23 
[Cassie] 
And then she dives down, hits the barrier. And she’s like oh no, the poor thing, It didn't take her long. I felt so bad. 

00:22:45:00 - 00:22:48:04 
[Erica] 
No, really. Like again, greater good. 

00:22:48:06 - 00:22:58:12 
[Erica] 
At- are there times when once she's figured out and like sussed it, that she like, does she vocalize? Does she make noises that are, like, happy? 

00:22:58:14 - 00:23:19:20 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. Once when she's like, figured out that, what the deal is with the pool, especially in the pool, that was her favourite place. She did these things, what I called happy honks. And she'd just be swimming away and preening herself, and then she’ll let out this big like “honk!” like she’s like, oh, I'm so happy right now. It's quite loud. Apologies, neighbours. Again. 

00:23:19:22 - 00:23:23:06 
[Erica] 
Oh, that- that’s pretty heartwarming. Oh, boy. 

00:23:23:06 - 00:23:42:01 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. At the same time, she did have, like, she's very good at letting you know. And they all are, when like, you're up in her grill and she's not happy about it. So if you get up in her face, she’ll let out this, like, massive squawk and it’s like an ongoing, getting louder and louder squawk. And she's like, in your face, just being like, get out of my face. 

00:23:42:03 - 00:23:47:11 
[Cassie] 
And I'm like, this is really intimidating right now. I don’t want to go back into your cage. 

00:23:47:13 - 00:23:51:20 
[Erica] 
That's what we want. Like, for her when she's independent out- in the great outdoors. 

00:23:51:24 - 00:23:52:14 
[Cassie] 
Exactly. 

00:23:52:20 - 00:24:05:03 
[Erica] 
Feisty, good on her. So, so speaking of penguins in the outdoors, when they get back from their beautiful holiday with you, what, what are the main threats that they're facing? 

00:24:05:05 - 00:24:22:15 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. So the, the main threats for them would be- on land would be- so they're on land for breeding at a certain time of year and for moulting – when they when they get a new suit, essentially. So the old feathers fall off and they get new feathers coming through. So the changing of the suit, the moulting time. 

00:24:22:17 - 00:24:45:24 
[Cassie] 
So those are the two times that they're on land and they're exposed to, predators. So, stoats, for the chicks, and dogs. So that's the threats on land. And for at sea, we're finding that where- the more we're studying where penguins go and forage and get their fish, there's an overlap with where they're fishing and where humans are fishing. 

00:24:46:01 - 00:25:02:22 
[Cassie] 
And that can be an issue when using things like set nets and, and trawling. And penguins can get caught up in these nets and, what happens is they need to come to a surface to breathe every so often. They can't hold their breath forever, but they get held underwater and they get caught up in these nets and end up drowning. 

00:25:02:24 - 00:25:27:06 
[Cassie] 
So a bit of a conflict going on there. And then the third thing, I think that would be an issue that we're still not entirely sure how it's going to affect penguins, but would be climate change. So this can end up in lower productivity waters. So less food resources. But what can also happen is when you get a warmer water coming through the fish that want to stay cooler or go deeper into the ocean. 

00:25:27:08 - 00:25:44:14 
[Cassie] 
And penguins have like a maximum dive depth that they can physically dive to and hold their breath for. And if their fish are below that dive depth, then they're going to end up not feeding. And so that's a potential that we're, looking into. 

00:25:44:14 - 00:26:01:03 
[Erica] 
Okay. Gosh, so much to think about. All right. We've had some wonderful listener questions come through. So, these are kind of, kind of quickfire. You can answer them, we'll do like a quickfire round. Ready steady. Go. Is there penguin aversion training for dogs, like there is kiwi aversion training? 

00:26:01:05 - 00:26:19:07 
[Cassie] 
That's a great question. And I know on the west coast of the South Island, there is, the lady who does this does penguin training as well. And so I would say, go ask your local dog aversion training dog person if they can do penguins as well. It's just a matter of getting some, samples together to enable that. 

00:26:19:07 - 00:26:21:18 
[Cassie] 
So feathers, some poo, some smelly stuff, that kind of thing. 

00:26:21:18 - 00:26:28:02 
[Erica] 
Oh, is that how they do it? Okay. Are you finding more penguins with ingested plastic around nowadays? 

00:26:28:04 - 00:26:42:02 
[Cassie] 
Personally, I haven't and I haven't necropsied the penguins, but I know I think the Dunedin Wildlife Hospital has found some, and there's a risk that seabirds, parents are feeding it to their chicks. So it's definitely an issue. 

00:26:42:04 - 00:26:48:10 
[Erica] 
Definitely there. And how are New Zealand penguins different to other penguins around the world. 

00:26:48:12 - 00:26:50:13 
[Cassie] 
They're just the best. 

00:26:50:15 - 00:26:51:10 
[Erica] 
No bias. 

00:26:51:12 - 00:27:14:12 
[Cassie] 
No bias at all. Well, we have two of the top three most endangered penguins in the world are New Zealand penguins. So the third at the moment is the tawaki, the Fiordland crested penguin. And then the hoiho, the yellow eyed penguin. And then the other one that sits in that category, top three is the Galapagos penguin. The tropical penguin. 

00:27:14:12 - 00:27:41:08 
[Cassie]
Penguins are weird. But they also- the New Zealand penguins breed in really rugged ground. So from, South Westland through to Fiordland, you know, through Haast to Milford Sound and Stewart Island. They’re breeding in these like dense forests, they’re walking up the beaches hopping over logs, getting their self through supplejack to get to their burrows. 

00:27:41:10 - 00:27:49:11 
[Cassie] 
So it's quite a hike for them.  
[Erica] 
It's incredible. 
[Cassie] 
So it's not like penguins in Antarctica on an iceberg. It's very different. 

00:27:49:13 - 00:27:52:08 
[Erica] 
Okay. These guys are like intrepid travellers. 

00:27:52:10 - 00:27:52:21 
[Cassie] 
yeah. 

00:27:52:21 - 00:27:55:06 
[Erica] 
What's the most common penguin injury? 

00:27:55:08 - 00:28:15:16 
[Cassie] 
From what I have seen personally, would have to be, emaciation, so being really skinny and dehydrated. And lacerations, so cuts to the body, can be the feet or the flippers, and we're not sure what's going on here, but what we think is happening is they might be encounters with things like barracuda, which sounds weird. It's just a fish. 

00:28:15:18 - 00:28:36:16 
[Cassie] 
But if the penguins – and this is a hypothesis – are feeding in [?] ups, where there's fish everywhere and there's penguins feeding, and then there's other fish feeding on smaller fish and barracuda feeding on smaller fish. And barracuda can be quite bite-y is what I understand. So they’re like just nipping at whatever's nearby. And that might be a penguin leg, unfortunately. 

00:28:36:18 - 00:28:45:00 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. There's also potential shark bites in there. I've seen some big cuts across the, the stomach. So, yeah, the poor things, it’s not an easy life.  

00:28:45:02 - 00:28:52:09 
[Erica] 
And what would you say is the single biggest obstacle to overcome to increase penguin numbers in mainland New Zealand? 

00:28:52:11 - 00:28:58:00 
[Cassie] 
I think there's two things. For land, protect them from predators. So stoats and dogs. 

00:28:59:00 - 00:29:12:13 
[Cassie] 
Being aware of – if you've got wildlife – where you're walking dogs. And, that battle between fisheries and where penguins forage, so that overlap between human foraging and, and penguin foraging. 

00:29:12:15 - 00:29:13:11 
[Erica] 
Okay.

00:29:13:13 - 00:29:23:21 
[Erica] 
What- you've, you've covered don't feed- don't feed penguins. What do people do, that they think helps penguins, that actually doesn't. And we need them to stop? 

00:29:23:23 - 00:29:29:05 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, that would be feeding penguins. That would be the main one.  

00:29:29:05 - 00:29:42:16 
[Erica]
If listeners take away one thing from this today, it is do not feed a penguin if you find it in the wild. That's not helping. Um now, do, do different penguin breeds take different lengths of micro naps? 

00:29:42:18 - 00:30:01:20 
[Cassie] 
That's a great question. And I'm actually not too sure, but I know that the chinstrap penguins do this crazy thing where they micro nap for four seconds, about like 10,000 times a day. And that's how they managed to, you know, survive during, parenting of chicks. So I don't know if that's something we could do.  

00:30:02:00 – 00:30:03:10 
[Erica]
Wow. We should learn. 

00:30:03:19 - 00:30:10:20 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. Just like both hemispheres kind of shut down for four seconds, and then they back up again. And that seems to work for them. Yeah. 

00:30:10:22 - 00:30:16:14 
[Erica]
Wow. It feels like, is that a really long blink or an actual nap. I'm not sure which one that is. 

00:30:16:17 - 00:30:19:15 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, yeah. Somewhere in between. 

00:30:20:12 - 00:30:26:11 
[Erica]
What's a really understated species that you think deserves more love from the public? 

00:30:26:13 - 00:30:44:13 
[Cassie] 
Oh, I love lizards. Any kind of lizards. Especially because New Zealand ones are so weird compared to the rest of the world. The whole like, I'm happy to live in Fiordland on top of a mountain where it snows and it rains like 12m a year. And, we're still constantly finding new species of lizards, skinks and geckos. 

00:30:44:15 - 00:30:59:11 
[Cassie] 
Which, I just thought, like we'd explored every inch of the world by now, that this wasn't going to happen, to me or in my lifetime. And here we are, just every kind of so often in New Zealand, we find a new species of lizard, and it's not that uncommon. 

00:30:59:13 - 00:31:09:00 
[Erica]
So cool, now, our last question and I am going to read this one exactly. One listener asked “my five year old James wants to know if they're taller than him or if they're like kōkako”. 

00:31:09:02 - 00:31:10:12 
[Cassie] 
I love that question. 

00:31:10:14 - 00:31:13:15 
[Erica]
So good. Thanks, James. 

00:31:13:17 - 00:31:42:11 
[Cassie] 
Penguins- um so the tawaki that I had is around 60cm, and I think the hoiho, the yellow eyed penguin is a bit taller than them, I mean, maybe 65cm. So let's just assume the average height of a five year old boy is around 100cm. Um so I think the penguin might come up to maybe it's belly, armpit, maybe? Yeah. So not quite as tall as James. 

00:31:42:13 - 00:31:59:18 
[Erica]
Cool, thank you all for your listener questions. They were fantastic. Now, every time we post a penguin dog attack story on social media, so many people just refuse to believe that it was a dog. They always kind of argue about it. Have you encountered that kind of pushback? 

00:31:59:20 - 00:32:25:09 
[Cassie] 
To be honest, personally, I haven't, but I have seen it out there and, you know, I can understand it in a way, which sounds weird coming from a conservationist. But, I don't think a lot of dogs intend to kill these birds. Like, like I was saying before, like the penguins, you can smell them from the front of my house when you walk past. They’re super stinky, all this bird smell, bird poo combined with fish. 

00:32:25:11 - 00:32:45:14 
[Cassie] 
And just overwhelming smell. And this is fun for dogs to investigate these smells, right? And they're just so inquisitive. And so I think it must be an overwhelming pull, to be like, what is this thing? And they probably never smelled something like a penguin before. It's not that common, right? And dogs investigate with their mouths as well, and they kind of play with their mouths. 

00:32:45:15 - 00:33:09:18 
[Cassie] 
Right. So they could pick up a penguin or bird and they can be quite soft mouthed. But a shake could mean a broken neck for a penguin. Or if the penguins kind of wiggling, they might just clamp down a little bit harder, which could mean a punctured lung for a penguin or any kind of bird. Some dogs are really good on recall, but when the reward, which might be something so novel and so stinky, is so great, they’ll be like, mum, not this time. 

00:33:09:18 - 00:33:13:10 
[Cassie] 
I can't come back. I'm so sorry. I've just got to see what this is and then put it in my mouth. 

00:33:13:12 - 00:33:14:05 
[Erica] 
Yeah. 

00:33:14:08 - 00:33:39:18 
[Cassie] 
So when you're walking a dog on a beach, look ahead. Scout out for wildlife. If you see some birds, maybe it's a good time to clip on- your dog onto the lead and walk past the birds and then take it off again. Um maybe, call out to other people, as you're passing them, “hey, there's some penguins down there or some birds nesting, just letting you know”, be a responsible human, a good human, and then carry your dogs motivators with them. 

00:33:39:18 - 00:33:59:13 
[Cassie] 
So, like, if they're really motivated by toys or treats or praise, you can maybe distract them, that way and get them to, to recall with a toy, a treat or some praise, then put them on the lead and walk past the distracting bird. Or get your dog ah bird aversion trained and ask them about penguins if you're in a penguin area. 

00:33:59:15 - 00:34:13:16 
[Erica] 
I feel like you've given us so many incredible facts already, that um, that this question- who knows, what you’ll come up with! But what is something about nature that just blew your mind when you learned it? We are calling these ‘Holy crap facts’. 

00:34:13:18 - 00:34:32:15 
[Cassie] 
Holy crap facts. Well, for me, my … my facts change depending what I've heard most recently and just the other week I learned that powelliphanta, like New Zealand's carnivorous land snail, can live up to 30 years old, and I was just like, I can't imagine, what like, a life. 

00:34:33:11 - 00:34:49:16 
[Cassie] 
30 years as a snail. That must be fascinating. But it's kind of like everything in New Zealand lives a long time. This is one of the weird things about New Zealand. So like the kiwi bird can live to 60, probably 80. I've seen some birds in the wild that look a hundred, I swear. You know, big, dry, scaly skin. 

00:34:49:16 - 00:35:12:09 
[Cassie] 
Some kind of sags under their eyes. You must be 100. Just very old. And then, like, the lizards here can live for a long time, too. So we've- I think we’ve recorded lizards, um geckos in the wild over 40 years of age. Um we can look at their patterns and, do photo ID based on their patterns. Um yeah. 

00:35:12:12 - 00:35:20:22 
[Cassie] 
Or powelliphanta we can tag. We put little, we stick little numbers, stick numbers on their shell, and we can see them grow over the years.  

00:35:20:22 - 00:35:21:15 
[Erica]
Okay. 

00:35:21:17 - 00:35:26:08 
[Cassie] 
But I would say a few more fun facts if you’ve got some time.  
[Erica]
Yes, please. Always. 

00:35:26:08 - 00:35:45:15 
[Cassie] 
Okay. So bats, I quite like bats. So I did bat rehabilitation in Australia and, they're very intelligent. And so I know for fruit bats, there's big micro bats. They have the same six neural pathways as humans do, so our brains are very similar. Um and I, we do a lot of studies on bats to figure out how our brain works too. 

00:35:45:15 - 00:36:09:10 
[Cassie] 
Crazy. Um but they're very social, and so are we. So very similar, I guess parts of the brain are working there. But as an example of this with, like, New Zealands, micro bats, the small ones that fit into the palm of your hand. Very cute. Um once we've caught them, and we release them, they managed to find their way back to their colony or the big roost. 

00:36:09:10 - 00:36:34:06 
[Cassie] 
So they all kind of roost together in a tree during the breeding season. Might be like 100 bats in there. So I might have one over here and, the colonies over here somewhere, and they change roost tree every day. And so we release this bat maybe in the early hours in the morning while it's still dark, and it finds the rest of its colony to whatever tree it's like- it is that day. 

00:36:34:06 - 00:36:45:15 
[Cassie] 
How do they know what tree it is, I don't know? Have they like pre-arranged this when they, like, left the roost at, at dusk that day? I don't know. How do they know? Is it, like, on a schedule? I don't know. 

00:36:45:17 - 00:36:47:24 
[Erica] 
Okay. Oh, my gosh. Is there a calendar on the inside of the roost wall? 

00:36:47:24 - 00:36:51:19 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, yeah. What are they doing? 

00:36:51:21 - 00:36:52:24 
[Erica]  
So intelligent. 

00:36:53:01 - 00:37:19:13 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. And then there's – that’s for the long tail bats – and for the short tail bats, which are, our ones that forage on the ground. They're pretty awesome. They're real like, chunky, meaty, aggressive bats, but tiny. So it's adorable. Um and my favourite thing about them is- oh, you know how normal bats, when they open their wings, they've got, like, a skeleton with, like, the bones pointing down, and the arm, and it's kind of thin. 

00:37:19:13 - 00:37:30:10 
[Cassie] 
And then a membrane. Um these short tailed bats have little biceps because they use the elbows to, like, walk around on the ground. So they've got biceps and shoulder muscles. 

00:37:30:12 - 00:37:31:12 
[Erica]  
Jacked bats. 

00:37:31:14 - 00:37:37:06 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, yeah. Jacked bats, with lats.  

00:37:37:08 - 00:37:44:02 
[Erica]  
Oh my gosh… um what's something that happened in the field that still makes you laugh when you think about it? I feel like you're going to have a lot of these. 

00:37:44:04 - 00:38:07:06 
[Cassie] 
Actually, I have two, for you. And, I think the first one is generally, picturing me trying to catch a kiwi that's running away. The Haast tokoeka are really smart, very feisty. I love that about them. But they've learned the sound of human. So when I get close, they'll start running away. Then the chase is on, and I can't run very fast or very well. 

00:38:07:06 - 00:38:26:07 
[Cassie] 
Especially, like, in a forest with logs, yeah, yeah. Supplejack, rocks, slippery roots. So there's me like sliding all over the place, and then kiwis – they're not really built to run either. So they're like, kind of like, fat bottom, chunky legs, long necked and beaked animal that just kind of like trip up over themselves. And like- 

00:38:26:09 - 00:38:37:05 
[Cassie] 
It's a bit of a mess and it's just a matter of like, if they fall over first, then I can catch them. If I fall over first, it’s game over- 
[Erica] 
They can laugh at you. 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

00:38:37:07 - 00:38:38:21 
[Erica] 
Um you said you had two. 

00:38:38:23 - 00:39:00:03 
[Cassie] 
Right. So the second one would be, doing a kiwi catching trip on Coal Island, which is an offshore island in Fiordland. And this is with the Haast tokoeka team. So they were spending ten days on the island, and I came in halfway through, on day five, and they managed to get some sort of limited reception. 

00:39:00:03 - 00:39:15:04 
[Cassie] 
Or was it satellite phone? And they got in contact and they were like, can you please bring chocolate, bring lots of chocolate and chips? And I was like, okay, sure. Like, you must have eaten a lot already. Like, must be pretty dire out there. And, so I fly in and land and they're like, thank you so much. 

00:39:15:04 - 00:39:33:00 
[Cassie] 
Thank you for chocolate, chocolate and chips. And I didn't realize what had happened is that when they were going through the quarantine process for the island, they had two bins of food. Week one and week two. They take all the food out to quarantine it, put all the food back in, but the food went in different tubs and all the chocolate and chips came in the second load and not the first. 

00:39:33:00 - 00:39:39:17 
[Cassie] 
They'd been on the island for five days with no chocolate, no chips, no food motivators, and they were just craving it. 

00:39:39:17 - 00:39:40:13 
[Erica] 
Oh no. 

00:39:40:13 - 00:39:43:21 
[Erica] 
No motivators. That was a tough week. 

00:39:43:23 - 00:39:45:13 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, yeah. 

00:39:45:15 - 00:39:49:22 
[Erica] 
Speaking of things that you need to bring with you when you go into the field, and not forget. 

00:39:49:23 - 00:39:55:24 
[Erica] 
Do you have an unconventional or conventional essential item that you take with you always when working in the field? 

00:39:56:04 - 00:40:16:23 
[Cassie] 
I always take a full block of Whittaker's chocolate. That just gets me through. Like sometimes if you come out from like a big trudge around the forest, or up and down a hill, off track, and you're, like, coming out and, like, got another two hours to walk. I just need something to get me through. And you just ho into a block of chocolate and, like, it's a serious thing. 

00:40:16:23 - 00:40:30:20 
[Cassie] 
I budget half a block of chocolate a day, so if I'm in there for two days, that's a full block. For the three days, it's two blocks. You know, it's, it's serious business.  
[Erica] 
It’s a two block job. 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. Two block job.  
[Erica] 
Definitely. 

00:40:30:22 - 00:40:47:20 
[Erica] 
Now, you're such a passionate conservationist and so enthusiastic about it. It's pretty inspiring to see. Can you, think of an instance where you saw something and it made you think, if everyone could see this, everyone would be a conservationist. Everyone would be as passionate as you are. 

00:40:47:22 - 00:41:02:18 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, I, I think for me, and a few of my friends have seen this when they've come around to my house, when I've had a penguin. Is- two things would be; the happy honks I talked about, when a penguin is in the water doing its thing, and it's just like letting off this amazing happy honk. 

00:41:02:20 - 00:41:26:07 
[Cassie] 
And the second thing would be like, ‘penguin parkour’ is what I'm calling it now. Penguins love to jump and I love watching them jump. And they they can jump really high. So like, they almost jump the entire height of themselves, so like close to 60cm. So, you know, my little penguin would just run around the backyard and, I do have an enclosure, mind you. 

00:41:26:09 - 00:41:49:20 
[Cassie] 
This is just for exercise and fitness. So we're just doing this. She's, like, hopping up on everything she can find, hopping down. And at one point, she got up onto this- we have a series of like, vertical logs that are like kind of stools in the backyard. And she got up onto them and was just like hopping from one to the next, and like, big hops, like long jumps, feet out, flying through the air and then landing and then hopping again. 

00:41:49:20 - 00:41:55:16 
[Cassie] 
And just- like it was like, penguin parkour, all around my backyard, onto rocks, logs whatever she could find. 

00:41:55:18 - 00:42:00:14 
[Erica] 
Oh my gosh. And not like trying to find food. But just like this is what I do, this is an activity. 

00:42:00:14 - 00:42:02:02 
[Cassie] 
Yeah, that's what I do. Yeah. 

00:42:02:02 - 00:42:14:24 
[Erica] 
Hey, is it- when you have, you know, kind of bonded with this penguin after five weeks, with the Fiordland crested penguin with angry eyebrows. Is it really hard to release them? Like, what's- tell me about that a little bit, if you can. 

00:42:15:01 - 00:42:33:21 
[Cassie] 
That's a, oh it's a really complex, emotional time. So like, I'm, I'm like, so happy and so stoked because they are always so ready and want to go back into the world. So I can't wait to give that back to them. I'm also really relieved because it's a lot of hard work, a lot of- 

00:42:33:23 - 00:42:35:22 
[Erica] 
Your neighbours are also relieved. 

00:42:35:24 - 00:42:56:23 
[Cassie] 
Yes, the noise and the smell will disappear soon. Um but then it’s also really sad because I got to know it for so long and we were like- it was like, well, best buds for a little bit. And so it was a really- it's a bittersweet moment. And I remember the, like the last release, my housemate who was, she called herself, penguin dad. 

00:42:57:00 - 00:43:17:22 
[Cassie] 
So she, she’s actually somewhat terrified of birds, but, it's a prerequisite, when you live with me that you have to be okay to help me with my birds. So she got really good. She, was okay with the penguin until it squawked. Then she's like, I'm out of here. This is your job. I can't handle the intimidating squawks. 

00:43:17:24 - 00:43:37:23 
[Cassie] 
And she could help me feed it and help me hold it. Um and so, she came with me to the release, and we had this, beautiful moment where we watched her, like, happily skip and jump into the water and, swim out to sea. And we had this little moment, and I see a bit of a tear on her face, and I was like, just holding it together myself and I was like, oh, it's so beautiful. 

00:43:38:04 - 00:43:43:10 
[Cassie] 
I didn't tell her this, and actually nobody knows this, but I did have a little cry afterwards.  

00:43:43:10 - 00:43:56:06 
[Erica] 
I think that's, that's nothing to be ashamed of. I think I'd be, kind of, yeah, in tears, but that's such a good point to remember that like, they, they want to get back out there and they would be thrilled to, you know, not have an enclosure anymore, so- 

00:43:56:10 - 00:44:01:03 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. It's just so awesome to see them so happy where they belong. 

00:44:01:05 - 00:44:01:15
[Erica] 
Yeah.

00:44:01:18 - 00:44:07:22
[Erica] 
And what can people do at home to help penguins? People that are listening. 

00:44:07:24 - 00:44:30:07 
[Cassie] 
Yeah. So minimizing the impacts on land. So, with dogs, being aware of wildlife areas, so dogs on leads, or avoiding penguin areas during the breeding times, and the moulting times. And be aware if there are penguins. So just have a quick look on the website to check that. Um doing some trapping, getting involved with trapping is great. 

00:44:30:09 - 00:44:52:10 
[Cassie] 
So for the stoats, check out your local community, or volunteer organization. You can volunteer with wildlife rehabilitation centres. They always need help, whether it's, hands on stuff, scrubbing poo, finding towels, catching fish. Whatever it is, fundraising, they always need help. So I encourage you to get involved. 

00:44:52:12 -  00:45:04:23 
[Erica] 
Ah, awesome. Cassie, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today. This is just been fantastic. We're very lucky to have you here in New Zealand working with our species. Kia ora. 

00:45:05:00 - 00:45:11:12 
[Cassie] 
Aw kia ora, thanks. It's been a pleasure to chat with you. 

[outro music] 
00:45:11:14 - 00:45:32:13 
[Erica] 
Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Erica Wilkinson, and this has been the DOC Sounds of Science podcast.  
This show is available wherever you get your podcasts or you can stream it off our website doc.govt.nz.  
This show is produced by Jayne Ramage with editing by Lucy Holyoake. If you enjoyed this episode, show us some love with a five star rating.  
[outro music fades] 

[Sound FX: Fiordland crested penguin/tawaki splashing in pool, and making honking sound] 

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:31:08 
[Sound FX: North Island kākā bird call] 
[Intro music] 
[Erica] 
Kia ora! I'm Erica Wilkinson and this is the DOC Sounds of Science podcast. 
Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science. 
Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s technical experts, scientists, rangers and the experts in between. 

00:00:31:08 - 00:00:42:18 
[Erica] 
Kia ora koutou katoa. Hello to you all. I'm very excited to welcome to the show. 
One of my favorite people to talk to and soon to be one of your favorite people to listen to. Scientist Terry Greene. Hello, Terry. 

00:00:42:20 - 00:00:44:12 
[Terry] 
Kia ora Erica. 

00:00:44:14 - 00:01:07:16 
[Erica] 
We basically had to drag Terry out of the field to get him here. Terry is an expert in all kinds of parrot, specifically kea, kākā, kākāriki, and kākāpō. He's spent a lot of time catching and monitoring birds and studying them and studying impacts of factors like predator control on non-target species. And he has some work stories that will blow our collective minds. 
  
00:01:07:17 - 00:01:10:12 
[Erica] 
Kia ora Terry. Would you like to introduce yourself? 
  
00:01:10:14 - 00:01:15:16 
[Terry] 
Ko Terry Green, ahau, I’m a scientist with the Department of Conservation. 
  
00:01:15:18 - 00:01:18:03 
[Erica] 
What brought you into conservation? 
  
00:01:18:05 - 00:01:42:12 
[Terry] 
Ah well, I'm one of those fortunate people. I, I at least I assume I'm a fortunate person. I attended a summer program talk at Lake Waikaremoana as part of the National Park summer program, a long time ago, when I was 15. And one of the talks was from a Wildlife Service staff member, and I thought, right, that's what I want to do. 
  
00:01:42:14 - 00:01:51:00 
[Terry] 
And so all of my efforts were directed towards that end. And, by great luck and good fortune, here we are today. 
  
00:01:51:02 - 00:02:07:13 
[Erica] 
Wow. From when you were 15. That is that is incredible. I love that you just had that certainty. Now we're not allowed to have favourite endangered species because we love them all. But secretly, we won't tell anyone. What is your favourite endangered species? 
  
00:02:07:15 - 00:02:41:14 
[Terry] 
Well, this is going to come as no surprise. It has to be a parrot, doesn't it?  
[Erica] 
Which kind? 
[Terry] 
Which, which flavour? Oh, there's so many to choose from, isn't there? Unfortunately, quite a few are endangered. Well, yeah, I'd have to go with kākāriki again. And I guess, although not particularly endangered where it occurs, and I'm talking about antipodes green parrots, you know, they only occur on one island, 700 odd kilometers southeast of the mainland of New Zealand. 
  
00:02:41:16 - 00:02:47:08 
[Terry] 
And if anything were to happen, that would be it. They don't occur anywhere else. 
  
00:02:47:10 - 00:02:56:10 
[Erica] 
Now you are a national tree climbing instructor according to your CV. So what is that like? How do you become a tree climbing instructor? 
  
00:02:56:13 - 00:03:17:08 
[Terry] 
Well, it's tree climbing, but not as you know, little kids used to do it. We just- we all used to do it- 
[Erica] 
You don't fall out! 
[Terry] 
No, no, no, but we're climbing trees which are substantially larger than your average backyard thing. So we're getting up to 20m plus above the ground. So you can't really just be climbing a tree like that. 
  
00:03:17:10 - 00:03:24:04 
[Terry] 
You know, it's a risky business and we try and take the risk out of that. Hence we need a bit of instruction, make people safe. 
  
00:03:24:06 - 00:03:34:03 
[Erica] 
And you've told me before that, when you get up the top and you peer into the nest cavities. Right? That's what you're you're doing up there. 
  
00:03:34:05 - 00:03:39:17 
[Terry] 
Yeah, yeah, it can be for anything. But, you know, generally what I do is peering into nest holes yeah. 
  
00:03:39:19 - 00:03:43:02 
[Erica] 
And, what do you usually see peering back at you? 
  
00:03:43:04 - 00:04:13:03 
[Terry] 
Well, hopefully we've timed it so that mum isn't in the nest. and she's still off, but, yeah, anything from eggs to fully grown chicks that are just about to launch themselves out. So um, we've got a fair inkling of what we're going to meet, but, you know, you never quite know. Once they get a bit older, they sort of come up to the entrance and try and get away from you and hide in holes and is- you know, game of hide and seek, usually, entails for those ones. 
  
00:04:13:05 - 00:04:18:17 
[Erica] 
What has been the most unexpected thing you've ever encountered in the field? 
  
00:04:18:19 - 00:04:41:01 
[Terry] 
Um well, it was it was a sort of a, an experience, if you like. When we were catching whio, in the central North Island, and we were sneaking up a river, we knew there was a pair of whio in the river somewhere, and, things flushed and came roaring down the river around the corner. 
  
00:04:41:01 - 00:05:07:24 
[Terry] 
And, they were flying at about or just above head height, probably about three meters above the river. And I was with another person. And, my immediate gut reaction when they sort of were approaching us was to stick my hand up in the air, like, like, stop, holt. I don't know what I was hoping to do, but the weird thing was, they both dropped into the water at my feet and I was able to pick them up. 
  
00:05:08:01 - 00:05:10:17 
[Erica] 
Oh my gosh, you’re actually the bird whisperer. 
  
00:05:10:19 - 00:05:22:13 
[Terry] 
Well, yeah. And I and I just said to the person, see, that's the way you do it, you know, their mouth was hanging open, so was mine, really. But it never happened again. 
  
00:05:22:15 - 00:05:28:09 
[Erica] 
Amazing. Oh did it not? I'm glad that you, you followed it up, though. As a real scientist you experimented. Controlled. 
  
00:05:28:11 - 00:05:30:14 
[Terry] 
Yeah. So that was that was fairly unexpected, surprising. 
  
00:05:30:17 - 00:05:42:05 
[Erica] 
That is very unexpected. And let's talk about ‘k’ birds, the what is the biggest threat facing kākā at the moment? 
  
00:05:42:07 - 00:05:53:23 
[Terry] 
Biggest threat. Ah well, it hasn't changed for a number of years. And that would be, the predation by stoats and possums, simply. 
  
00:05:54:00 - 00:05:58:12 
[Erica] 
And what have we learned about kākā since you started researching them? 
  
00:05:58:14 - 00:06:22:23 
[Terry] 
You know, we were able to quantify the, that, you know, that it was actually stoats and possums doing most of the damage. There is a lot of talk around, the impact of possums and reducing food supplies, sort of the clearance of forests, which undoubtably had an impact. But the um, the possums wasn't so much the competition with food resources. 
  
00:06:22:23 - 00:06:48:07 
[Terry] 
It was the fact that possums were actually killing and eating, chicks, eggs and adults. Um which was something of a surprise. Although we sort of cottoned on to this about the same time as they did in Australia. So they had parrots that were being preyed on by brushtail possums on Kangaroo Island. and it came as a bit of a shock to them, as, as well. 
  
00:06:48:09 - 00:07:15:04 
[Terry] 
So, but definitely stoats are at the top of the heap. As far as threats go, they are extremely efficient and effective predators. And I know you've talked to Tim about the impact on kiwi. and you know, there’s a raft of other species that, are obviously vulnerable to them. All parrots, tend to nest in cavities, so they are in a hole. 
  
00:07:15:06 - 00:07:33:15  
[Terry] 
They can't readily escape, and they get bailed up by, you know, very fast moving, animal, you know, the nest cavities smell quite strongly. And so it's easy for these predators that use their highly developed sense of smell to find them. So. 
  
00:07:33:17 - 00:07:40:21 
[Erica] 
And what about other areas of kākā behavior that you've researched? 
  
00:07:40:23 - 00:08:16:10 
[Terry] 
Ah yeah. Well, there’s the breeding biology thing. So, you know, how how do they actually reproduce and how often? Ah then there's, things around the movements of the birds through the environment. So that's sort of locally within the patch of forest we might be working in. How much of an area do they need to survive? And do they make, trips elsewhere seasonally to pick up on seasonal food supplies that may not occur in their particular patch, which they tend to live in? 
  
00:08:16:12 - 00:08:25:11 
[Terry] 
Um and then broader landscape movements as well. Sort of. Yeah. Regional movements that they make. 
  
00:08:25:13 - 00:08:32:09 
[Erica] 
And how does this kind of research that you've been doing, how does that broadly help us? 
  
00:08:32:11 - 00:09:01:00 
[Terry] 
Um well, the sort of revelation that, they need, well, some of the birds sort of move over quite large landscapes is is interesting. So there's this whole workstream about threatened mobile species and what they need, you know, so if they're moving from place to place, if that's an age group or a sex or some sort of seasonal thing. 
  
00:09:01:02 - 00:09:35:18 
[Terry] 
And they're using other patches of forest that we aren't currently protecting from predators, then we need to know about that, because otherwise, yeah, we're doing fine here. They're nesting here, but then they all take off and go somewhere else. And they're spending months out of that particular area, then having some sort of, knowledge about where those areas are and what their pest status is and what risk they're being exposed to is sort of useful, really, because it's all a bit pointless if we rear all of these things up and they all go somewhere where they're all going to get nailed. 
  
00:09:35:20 - 00:09:40:16 
[Terry] 
It's it's not so flash. So, you know, things like that. 
  
00:09:40:18 - 00:10:03:15 
[Erica] 
Okay. That makes sense. So, so finding out where you need to put pest control. Otherwise you keep them safe here, and then they fly away and get eaten, by something else over there.  
[Terry] 
Yeah. 
 
[Erica] 
Changing tack slightly. You've told me about, whio and unexpected memories. What has been one of your most triumphant field memories across your years? 
  
00:10:03:17 - 00:10:39:09 
[Terry] 
Yeah, I, I think there's the, being involved with the first aerial eradication of rats from offshore islands and, how that has sort of, you know, propagated itself, through time, on all sorts of other islands. So we started off with a tiny group of islands in the northern Hauraki Gulf. And now, you know, we've got to a point where we’re cleaning mice off the Antipodes and rats of Campbell Island and all of this sort of stuff. 
  
00:10:39:11 - 00:11:02:17 
[Terry] 
And it was a major breakthrough, in terms of island eradications, and the sort of techniques moved internationally as well. So being on the ground when that was going on was, you know, it was it was pretty amazing. I guess at the time we didn't realize how amazing it would be. But looking back, it's you know, I'm particularly proud of being there, on, on those few days where we did that. 

00:11:06:22 - 00:11:30:08 
[Erica] 
Oh, looking back on that, I feel that you could name quite a few species that you've technically saved because you were there on the ground helping that start. Now you've spent, ah a lot of time on offshore islands searching for and catching and transferring birds such as hihi, tīeke, black petrels and little spotted kiwi. Can you tell us about the most challenging translocation you've ever done?  
  
00:11:30:10 - 00:12:09:07 
[Terry] 
Ah challenging? Well, probably some of the saddleback, tīeke transfers. Ah you know, so most of the birds I was involved with transferring came from a place called Cuvier Island off the Coromandel Peninsula. And the weather conditions were often marginal. Um getting on and off the island could be tricky, if not downright dangerous. Um and then we had to sort of set up camp and catch our 50 birds and house them and, you know, stick them in boxes and then get them to the island where they were going. 
  
00:12:09:09 - 00:12:34:11 
[Terry] 
So logistically, it was a big challenge, um there were some instances where the boats failed coming into the island, and we got rolled out of our boats, and there were packets of peas and toilet rolls rolling around in the surf, along with the people that were supposed to be using those items. Um yeah- injuries... there was a person, you know, had the boat come down on top of them and split their leg open. 
  
00:12:34:11 - 00:12:49:03 
[Terry] 
And, there were sharks in the bay and, you know, it was all go [laughing] but, you know, you get on with it, you drag yourself out of the surf, you dry yourself off and you get stuck so, you know, it's it's just all in a day. 
  
00:12:49:05 - 00:12:50:16 
[Erica] 
All in a days work! 
  
00:12:50:18 - 00:13:12:00 
[Terry] 
Actually- well a cyclone came through on one of those things and we were stuck on the island, ran out of food, and all we had to eat was, ah lemons we found in a World War II, orchard and paua that we were able to get because the fish weren't biting, and some Jerusalem artichokes. So it had a horrendous effect on our guts. 
  
00:13:12:02 - 00:13:39:10 
[Erica] 
Oh, not the best salad that you're ever after. I would just like to qualify that this is a historic example, ah of Terry’s work in the field and not a recent translocation or recent stranding of the team. Now can we talk a bit about the non-target species and the impacts of toxins on them? You've done a lot of research into the impacts of toxins on non-target species, specifically on offshore islands and mainland forest systems. 
  
00:13:39:12 - 00:13:47:04 
[Erica] 
This is such a big concern, and one of the biggest issues on our road to Predator Free 2050. Can you tell us about what you do there? 
  
00:13:47:06 - 00:14:15:03 
[Terry] 
Well, I guess I started this off when I was working on offshore islands um earlier on. Um obviously, if you're trying to eradicate, rats, for instance, you have to drop toxin all over the place. Um and usually this is achieved through helicopters in monsoon buckets full of, you know, toxin. Um and of course, in a lot of these places, there are a bunch of non target’s that you really care about. 
  
00:14:15:03 - 00:14:44:09 
[Terry] 
So the indigenous fauna, and you don't really want to, you know, be killing those. And so for most of these operations to eradicate rats, there was a program of monitoring that went along with it just to assure ourselves that we weren't creating problems as as well as solving- solving one and creating others. And by and large, the impact was relatively negligible. 
  
00:14:44:11 - 00:15:10:07 
[Terry] 
Yeah. There's always a risk in using toxins on the mainland, on islands. And yes, you know, the, the odd, non-target will, perish is a result of it, but it is about the population impact and, you know, sort of ten times out of ten, the net benefits far outweighs the, mortality that you get from those operations. 
  
00:15:10:09 - 00:15:25:14 
[Erica] 
Um we've got some wonderful listener questions for you. They've been sending them in all across this week when we asked for some kākā-uestions. Thank you Jayne Ramage, our wonderful producer. Um fast, fast questions. Fast answers. Terry, are you ready? 
  
00:15:25:19 - 00:15:27:17 
[Terry] 
All right. Yeah. Go for it.  
  
00:15:27:19 - 00:15:30:04 
[Erica] 
Okay. How long do kākā live for? 
  
00:15:30:06 - 00:15:33:06 
[Terry] 
I dunno [laughs] 
  
00:15:33:08 - 00:15:37:12 
[Erica] 
We've started well [laughing]. How's the population tracking? 
  
00:15:37:14 - 00:15:47:20 
[Terry] 
[laughing] Well, I should preface the um, the, how long do they live thing by saying in captivity, probably around 40 years, in the wild, we don't really know. 
  
00:15:47:22 - 00:15:51:23 
[Erica] 
And do you think they live longer in captivity? Is that how it goes? 
  
00:15:52:00 - 00:15:59:20 
[Terry] 
Well, yes. Because they're looked after, but, you know, they're not having to sort of expand efforts to survive as much.  
  
00:15:59:20 - 00:16:04:13 
[Erica] 
So okay, how's the population tracking in the wild? 
  
00:16:04:15 - 00:16:12:03 
[Terry] 
Good in areas that we're doing integrated possum and stoat control. Not so good in areas we aren't. 
  
00:16:12:09 - 00:16:22:17 
[Erica] 
Okay, good to know. Ah next question. This is not from me. I'm 18 and I live in Auckland, and I want to get into the industry. What do I do? 
  
00:16:22:19 - 00:17:06:19 
[Terry] 
Oh, I wish I had that formula [laughs] I’d bottle it and sell it to people. A lot of it's good luck, I think. Um well, you know, it's all the usual sort of answers, really. Study hard, pick up some outdoor skills. you know, you need to know how to survive and look after yourself in those environments that you end up, so having good outdoor skills, tramping skills, all of that sort of stuff. B eing inquisitive of mind being- having a degree of bloody mindedness, and a good sense of humor and social skills, because you'll definitely need both of those. 
  
00:17:06:20 - 00:17:11:00 
[Erica] 
And volunteer and get involved and all of those good things as well. 
  
00:17:11:00 - 00:17:30:14 
[Terry] 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's not like I suddenly left university and ended up with a job. You know, I did 8-10 years worth of contract and volunteering stuff before I got a permanent job, so, you know, but you view it as your apprenticeship, to a degree. And you have to be prepared to sort of go down that path. It's not easy. 
  
00:17:32:10 - 00:17:39:16 
[Erica] 
No. Okay. That makes sense. Right back to the fast track. What's the difference between kea and kākā? 
  
00:17:39:18 - 00:17:50:03 
[Terry] 
Kea are green, kākā are brown. Kea are bigger than kākā. Kea can live in the mountainous environments, kākā are largely forest dwellers, although kea will live in the forest as well. 
  
00:17:50:05 - 00:17:52:15 
[Erica] 
Do mice eat either of those species? 
  
00:17:52:21 - 00:17:53:10 
[Terry] 
No. 
  
00:17:53:10 - 00:17:57:01 
[Erica] 
Can kākā solve puzzles like kea can. 
  
00:17:57:02 - 00:18:02:07 
[Terry] 
Oh this is- I don't want to dis kākā, but I don't think they do [laughing]. 
  
00:18:02:08 - 00:18:03:19 
[Erica] 
Has anyone tried, you know? 
  
00:18:03:21 - 00:18:25:18 
[Terry] 
No, I don't think I don't- to be fair, I don't know if they've tried, but, I, I don't know if they, they exhibit the degree of inquisitiveness and, you know, playfulness that kea do, you know, they're sort of the more stolid cousins from the provinces, perhaps [laughing]. 
  
00:18:25:20 - 00:18:29:23 
[Erica] 
Kea are definitely in A League of their own, I think we would say, Yeah. 
  
00:18:30:00 - 00:18:41:19 
[Terry] 
Yeah, I think so. I think it's it's about the environment they live in, you know, it's a more challenging environment. And, you know, it's- so the theory goes, they have to have the flexibility of behavior that allows them to deal with that. 
  
00:18:41:19 - 00:18:49:02 
[Erica] 
That's a very diplomatic answer. Are all parrots monogamous? 
  
00:18:49:04 - 00:19:13:20 
[Terry] 
Ooh. By and large I'd say yes, but they are obviously exceptions to that. Kākāpō is sort of a bit of a one, where they are lek breeders. So, you know, the males advertise their presence and the females choose and they may choose more than one male to mate with, in a given season. 
  
00:19:13:22 - 00:19:27:02 
[Terry] 
Um yeah. By and large, though, they, yeah, they're monogamous. Unless they fail at breeding. And, you know, divorces occur just like in any other animal. And they'll choose someone else. 
  
00:19:27:04 - 00:19:34:24 
[Erica] 
I want that reality show. I would watch it ten times out of ten. Why are kākā rare in Taranaki. 
  
00:19:35:01 - 00:20:15:22 
[Terry] 
Why are they rare in Taranaki? Um well, I guess the first thing is a heap of trees were chopped down there. Um and there's relatively little of the forest left. So that's, that's number one. Number two is, what we've talked about previously is the, stoat and possum predation and not having adequate, amount of that in the areas that are left, and even where that does occur, when you're trying to start from zero, you, you're relying on birds roaming into the area from outside to start a population, and it can take a very long time. 
  
00:20:15:24 - 00:20:23:02 
[Erica] 
Okay. That leads me on to do they migrate? 
  
00:20:23:04 - 00:20:51:08 
[Terry] 
Ah how to define migration. They move, they can move around. Um migration sort of, sort of, I don't know, implies some sort of intent to, you know, go somewhere for some purpose. Um you know, the classic sort of migration of waders, say, from New Zealand to the breeding grounds in the Arctic. Um, kākā I think, they, they move around, they'll move for food supplies, they'll move considerable distances for that.  
 
00:20:51:10 - 00:21:18:18 
[Terry] 
Um and as we have found recently, with work with Manaaki Whenua, in the Waikato Basin, they just seem to move around for the hell of it. We're not quite sure why. Um it may be just, a sort of a a reflection of a past movement that used to occur for a particular purpose. And it's just being handed down through the generations of genetic material. 
  
00:21:18:24 - 00:21:31:24 
[Terry] 
You know, they keep doing it. Um but, yeah, these are sort of regional movements for purposes as yet unknown, but they certainly can move long distances. 
  
00:21:32:01 - 00:21:40:12 
[Erica] 
I read once that juvenile kākā tend to take off and do like a bit of an OE, and then come back and, you know, settle down. 
  
00:21:40:14 - 00:22:04:00 
[Terry] 
Well that’s yeah, that's what we think is sort of going on with the, Waikato situation. So, a number of the birds seem to be juveniles and are moving from Waikato out to the outer Hauraki Gulf Islands like Aotea and Hauturu. And even further north up to Kaitaia and back again. So yeah, maybe it's just simply- 
  
00:22:04:00 - 00:22:05:06 
[Erica] 
Finding themselves. 
  
00:22:05:08 - 00:22:10:12 
[Terry] 
Finding themselves- is a big OE for, you know, parrot kind. 
  
00:22:10:14 - 00:22:27:22 
[Erica] 
Thank you so much for sending all of those in. That is my favorite segment of the show, that’s our listener questions. All right. My turn to ask a question again. Can you tell us about rescuing the remaining kōkako on Great Barrier Island and packing them off to Little Barrier Island? 
  
00:22:27:24 - 00:22:53:07 
[Terry] 
Oh well, there were, I just I can't remember how long ago it was. It would have been in the 1990s, I guess. There were known to be about three birds remaining on the northern, stewardship lands. Part of Aotea, Great Barrier Island. And, they were in all likelihood, well, they were, they were single birds. There wasn't any pairs. 
  
00:22:53:07 - 00:23:18:07 
[Terry] 
And so the, the likelihood was they were all males and they were basically just withering away, you know, just slowly the the lid was sinking on them, if you like. and they were just getting older and not really achieving anything. And this is a population that had been, isolated for a very long time. and they were the only ones left. 
  
00:23:18:07 - 00:23:42:13 
[Terry] 
And so a decision was made to try and let them contribute to the genetics of another population. And so, you know, there was some negotiation, around removing those birds and the decision was made to try and catch as many as we could and moved them off to Hauturu. And I think we caught I think it was three of them. 
  
00:23:42:15 - 00:24:12:12 
[Terry] 
Um and I've never seen a reaction, to lure calls to bring them into the mist nets, like those birds we played probably five seconds of calls and a bird was in the net. So they were obviously really desperate, you know, to hear and see another kōkako, which they hadn't seen for donkey's years. Um and so, yeah, they were scooped up and flown over to Hauturu, where presumably they've been incorporated into that population. 
  
00:24:12:12 - 00:24:32:12 
[Terry] 
And the idea is that, at some point, sooner or later we’ll be able to declare Great Barrier Island clean of pests and we can move them back, to the island and establish the population again. Yeah. So, you know, we live in hope. 
  
00:24:32:14 - 00:24:46:17 
[Erica] 
Oh, I love that conservation story. Very cool. We have had some funny stories on this podcast. Nature is serious, but also often quite funny. Ah what's something that's happened in the field that still makes you laugh when you think about it. 
  
00:24:46:19 - 00:25:50:02 
[Terry] 
Well, I can tell you about something that happened when I left the field. Long time ago, again, we were in the throes of changing our currency. And we used to have one- and two-dollar paper notes, and ah the powers that be decided that this was redundant, and we’d change them for coins. And I’d been working out on Hauturu for seven months without coming off, and was only vaguely aware of this change. Um and I did come off, and went straight to a bakery as one does when one comes off an offshore island after so long. In Warkworth, and ordered whatever it was, probably a pie or a sandwich or something. And the change that came back was these funny gold coins and I pointedly said to the person behind the counter, ‘what are these?’ [laughing] much to the puzzlement and amusement of everybody standing around me, and I’m looking around going ‘oh yes...’ [laughing] 

00:25:50:02 – 00:26:26:34 
[Erica] 
Oh my gosh. 
[Terry]  
So that was- that was sort of funny in retrospect but it was damn embarrassing at the time.  
[Erica] 
Terry I've got something written down here that says that there is a story around the top of a tree, and a petrel? 
[Terry] 
Oh... ah. Yeah, why do all these stories go back to Little Barrier, I'm not quite sure about this. Um it was in the days when I was doing kākāpō work out there. So part of the thing was, I was contracted to assist with the supplementary feeding of birds. This was the trial when we first started to do this.  
  
00:26:27:04 - 00:27:27:24 
[Terry] 
And, you know, part of the role was to go up to the top of the island and camp out and see where the males were booming from. And to do this you had to get to high points. And, I found a high point, which was the dead crown of a tree. And I used to clamber up this thing and sit there, right on top of the summit ridge and listen for where kākāpō were booming from. 
  
00:27:28:01 - 00:27:29:23 
[Erica] 
That sounds like such a cool job. 
  
00:27:30:00 - 00:27:52:20  
[Terry] 
Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was pretty cool. Because you'd be sitting up there and, you know, on a misty sort of a night in the middle of summer, as you may know, it's a major breeding site for petrels, particularly Cook's petrels, but also black petrels, which are considerably larger. And here's me sitting at the top of this, listening out, trying not to fall asleep. 
  
00:27:52:22 - 00:28:04:16 
[Terry] 
And one of these black petrels came barreling in and hit me in the middle of the chest and knocked me out of the tree, [laughing] so I got a hell of a fright. I was lucky I didn't skewer myself on something. Yeah, so. 
  
00:28:04:18 - 00:28:09:01 
[Erica] 
I bet the petrel got a fright as well. Like, what were you doing there. 
  
00:28:09:03 - 00:28:33:05 
[Terry] 
Well, yes, I was obviously on its flight path. You know, it was an obstruction it hadn't encounted before. So, but I've been hit in the chest by other petrels as well. I was having a shower in the middle of winter, on an offshore island. Um you know, one of those solar shower things. Pitch black. I had a candle going, and, you know, with those solar showers, you wet yourself down, you soap yourself off. 
  
00:28:33:07 - 00:29:05:09 
[Terry] 
So, yeah, you soap yourself up and, I was covered in soap. Starkers, in the middle of the forest, with a little candle going and, a gray face petrel came barreling in through the canopy, hit me in the chest and knocked me over into all of these, dead leaves. And so here, am I, like, you know, the sort of tar baby from a brer rabbit, you know, running around, pitch black, trying to find a light, covered in soap and dead leaves.  
  
00:29:05:11 - 00:29:08:17 
[Terry] 
It was, yeah, it was horrific. 
  
00:29:08:19 - 00:29:11:12 
[Erica] 
And you got dirty again. And you had to shower again. 
  
00:29:11:12 - 00:29:17:15 
[Terry] 
Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah. It was, you know, such are the joys of fieldwork. 
  
00:29:17:17 - 00:29:27:06 
[Erica] 
Now because pretty much everyone who's come on this show has ended up talking about poo. Do you have a conservation poo story? 
  
00:29:27:08 - 00:29:41:22 
[Terry] 
Ah. Well, yes. If you're going to handle animals, you're going to get pooed on. Now it just goes with the territory. You know, a giant monkey grabs you out of the forest somewhere. You're not going to be very happy. And you, you know, you're-  
  
00:29:41:24 - 00:29:43:04 
[Erica] 
Oh, you're the giant monkey- 
  
00:29:43:04 - 00:30:02:05 
[Terry] 
Control mechanisms don't work. So I think, yeah, I've been pooed on by most things that I've handled. I think, penguins would rank as possibly the worst, thing-  
  
00:30:02:05 - 00:30:03:10 
[Erica] 
Goes pretty far doesn’t it. 
  
00:30:03:12 - 00:30:26:04 
[Terry] 
Yeah, yeah. But um, and perhaps the funniest thing. Here we go. A bit of schadenfreude again. Was, we were walking under a shag colony with a, colleague of mine, and, he proceeded to peer upwards at the shags with an open mouth and managed to, collect one in the mouth and his beard. 
  
00:30:26:04 - 00:30:26:17 
[Erica] 
Oh no. 
  
00:30:26:19 - 00:30:37:09 
[Terry] 
So, yeah, he professes not to remember that, but I remember it very well because I almost split myself laughing. 
  
00:30:37:11 - 00:30:49:18 
[Erica] 
[lauging] I'm not surprised. Um can you recall an instance or an occurrence where you thought if everyone could see this, everyone would be a conservationist? 
  
00:30:49:20 - 00:31:16:18 
[Terry] 
Yes, I'd say that is ah, any visit to a Pest Free offshore island. Um because it is just absolutely stunning. And I'd like to think that, you know, that's what we're striving for on the mainland. And, what we’re striving towards at least, you know, the diversity of, and the sheer abundance of, life on these islands is just absolutely stunning. 
  
00:31:16:18 - 00:31:38:03 
[Terry] 
And you can sit in one place and pick up half a dozen geckos, and there's hundreds of shearwaters coming in and landing all around you, diving into their burrows. And, you know, there's there's beetles roaming around all over the place. And, it's just absolutely mind boggling. So, you know, anywhere where there's no pests or few people. 
  
00:31:38:03 - 00:32:07:13 
[Terry] 
So, you know, Antarctica is another place that springs to mind, in going into huge penguin colonies with 260,000 breeding pairs. Um you know, the sort of sheer volume and noise, and and smell, it's just it's absolutely stunning. Um and, you know, you know, we've lost so much of that. And to see these things is, you know, a salutary lesson in what we have lost. 
  
00:32:07:15 - 00:32:15:05 
[Erica] 
Yeah. Very well said. What's your PSA, your call to action for the public around conservation? 
  
00:32:15:07 - 00:32:36:11 
[Terry] 
Get involved. Ah there's a lot of things people can do. You know, to improve the life of, New Zealand's wildlife and, and plants, for that matter. Obviously, from my world you know, pest control is an important component of that. Um and, I think more and more people are sort of capable of doing that sort of thing. 
  
00:32:36:11 - 00:33:11:17 
[Terry] 
And, we just have to look at a place like Wellington these days, where, you know, out of Zealandia and the Predator Free 2050 call to arms, we now have kākā flying around central Wellington, creating all sorts of mischief and, and, you know, and people really appreciate that, by and large. And a few years ago, staying in the middle of town in Dixon Street and being woken up by a kākā outside my motel window, was an experience you know, I savor and, think, wow, this is pretty cool. 
  
00:33:11:19 - 00:33:28:03 
[Terry] 
You know, so if we can we can do that elsewhere. Um you know, I'm all for it. I don't mind, I wouldn't mind having a few kākā ripping into my fruit trees. 
  
00:33:28:05 - 00:33:44:14 
[Erica] 
Sounds like a wonderful problem to have to me. Terry, thank you so much for coming on to talk to us today. I know that we had to book this date with you like three months in advance, but we got you here and we are thrilled to have talked to you. 
  
00:33:44:15 - 00:33:51:07 
[Erica] 
Thank you so much for sharing all of your wonderful stories with us. 
[Terry] 
Not a problem Erica, happy to do it.  
[Outro music] 
00:33:51:09 - 00:34:19:20 
[Erica] 
Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Erica Wilkinson, and this has been the DOC Sounds of Science podcast. The show is available wherever you get your podcasts or you can stream it off our website doc.govt.nz. This show is produced by Jayne Ramage with editing by Lucy Holyoake. If you enjoyed this episode, show us some love with a five star rating. 
[Sound FX: North Island kākā bird sound] 

Erica

This is part two of our interview with renowned kākāpō scientist, Dr. Andrew Digby.

In part 1 Andrew shared so many great stories about the intensive kākāpō breeding season, fascinating kākāpō mating rituals, and the questionable, albeit effective innovation that we call the spermcopter.

Here in part two, we delve into some of kākāpō conservation’s biggest wins, as well as the disappointments, the challenges and the continual learnings from managing such an intriguing, unusual species.

We kick things off by asking Andrew a few of your listener questions. First up, how is climate change affecting the management of kākāpō?

00:27:44:22 - 00:28:04:21

Andrew

That's a really, really good question. And we talked earlier in the previous episode about Aspergillosis, a fungal pneumonia, which we think might have been exacerbated by some unusual climate, climatic conditions. So, a hot, dry summer. So that's one. And the disease is always an issue and that's a real impact, a probable impact of climate change for many species.

00:28:04:23 - 00:28:25:12

Andrew

Another one is kind of a little bit unusual in that kākāpō breed in response to certain trees, mass fruiting and that mass fruiting effect actually depends on temperatures and in particular temperatures from one summer to the next summer. So for example, with kākāpō, with the rimu trees, if we have a hot summer than a cold summer, then we know two years later there's going to be a rimu mast.

00:28:25:14 - 00:28:43:06

Andrew

And with climate change you might get greater temperature fluctuations, so you might be more likely to have a hot summer then a cold summer, which means you might get more rimu masts and you might even get bigger rimu masts too. So there could possibly be a silver lining in that you might actually end up with some more kākāpō breeding and more bigger breeding seasons.

00:28:43:08 - 00:28:47:01

Andrew

And yeah, we haven't confirmed that at all, but that's a hypothesis.

00:28:47:03 - 00:28:54:17

Erica

And next up is how did the extinct North Island kākāpō compare to the South Island kākāpō?

00:28:54:19 - 00:29:25:00

Andrew

We don't know a lot about that, actually. There's quite limited genetic samples from the North Island kākāpō. We think there may have been some genetic differences, but there was nothing too obvious in terms of any sort of morphological or behavioral differences. Ah, the North Island kākāpō went extinct earlier than the South Island kākāpō so early 20th century, estimated between like the thirties and the fifties for the North Island kākāpō, whereas quite a bit later, from the seventies to around about the nineties for the South Island kākāpō.

00:29:25:02 - 00:29:34:03

Erica

Okay, can we tell from their DNA if they have clear Gondwanan origins, or is that passerine birds only?

00:29:34:05 - 00:29:54:18

Andrew

We think that they're probably not Gondwanan, they split from their nearest relatives. So this is actually the New Zealand parrots, so the kākā and the kea and, and the kākāpō all lumped together had a common ancestor split about 55 million years ago, which is after the Gondwana split and then kākāpō split from the kea and the kākā round about 25 to 30 million years ago.

00:29:54:19 - 00:30:05:20

Andrew

They've been isolated for quite a long time. So kākāpō almost certainly had a flying ancestor. And then over this last 25, 30 million years they have lost that power of flight.

00:30:05:22 - 00:30:11:04

Erica

Okay? Because they didn't need it. Are they related to the Aussie night parrot.

00:30:11:06 - 00:30:34:21

Andrew

Ah not really, no, the kākāpō are one of the oldest parrots, so that, they’ve sort of branched that kākāpō and those New Zealand parrots split off a long time ago, whereas the night parrots split off quite a lot more recently, around about 25 million years ago. And if you want a good visual demonstration of this, go to OneZoom.org where there's a tree of life that you can zoom in on and see how all of these species line up together, it’s absolutely fascinating.

00:30:34:23 - 00:30:51:21

Erica

I will definitely be doing that and I bet everyone else will as well. Thank you, listeners. That was a wonderful round of listener questions.

So in addition to low fertility, another big issue kākāpō are facing is running out of room, can you tell me about that and what is the plan for that?

00:30:51:23 - 00:31:09:04

Andrew

Yeah, that's a very good question. It's one of our biggest problems at the moment is space, because we've had these really big breeding seasons in succession 2016, 2019, 2022, all record breeding seasons, and we've actually doubled the population since the start of 2016. So we have run out of room probably a little bit more quickly than we're expecting.

00:31:09:06 - 00:31:31:00

Andrew

And so … finding new space is one of the main things. But the problem is that there aren't really many good places left. We've kind of got all the good predator free islands, and so we're now looking at going to different places. It's such an important goal to try and get more and more areas of, of predator free habitat across the country.

00:32:22:14 - 00:32:37:09

Erica

We should mention too, that conservation is a team effort and that there is a role for everyone. We work with many partners. Our most important relationship is with iwi. Tell me how your team work with Ngāi Tahu to safeguard such a taonga species.

00:32:37:11 - 00:32:56:13

Andrew

Sure. And so that team effort thing is so important that, you know, we are a team of people. We've been standing on the shoulders of giants. You know, that cliche that people have gone by for decades and decades doing this work. So that's so, so important. And our partnerships are super important. And our partnership with Ngāi Tahu, we have a very good relationship with Ngāi Tahu.

00:32:56:16 - 00:33:20:09

Andrew

We work really closely, consult with them on all of the decisions that we make. We meet regularly and and it's kind of expanding and growing. So for example, the recent translocation that we had to Maungatautari, and there was a direct whanaungatanga agreement between Ngāi Tahu and the Iwi at Maungatautari too, so that they're able to do that cultural aspect of that exchange of birds as well as our practical conservation management side of it too.

00:33:20:09 - 00:33:29:05

Andrew

So yeah, I think this is a really exciting space and it really helps us to grow our conservation efforts by working more closely with, with iwi.

00:33:29:07 - 00:33:41:16

Erica

Awesome. And, and you've got commercial partners too, shout out to Meridian. I love that Meridian, in addition to funding support, often have their staff get to join you in the field. Is that right?

00:33:41:18 - 00:34:03:02

Andrew

That is right. And that's been really, really critical. And that's why we have some quite complicated power systems on our islands, for example. So we've recently got a lot of solar systems set up on our islands with batteries. And so we've got complete renewables on the islands and just maintaining and installing and helping with those is a that's a really, I think, a good use of these partnerships.

00:34:03:03 - 00:34:11:05

Andrew

They can use their expertise to help us in areas like that. So yeah, that infrastructure stuff as well as the, as the funding is, is very important.

00:34:11:07 - 00:34:22:15

Erica

Brilliant. What’s um, are kākā and kākāpō similar in the cheekiness, like will kākāpō try and you know, get into the wires of things on the island?

00:34:22:17 - 00:34:38:11

Andrew

They will, they do pull things apart. So yeah, we definitely have to kākāpō-proof things on islands. They're not quite kea level but they can be pretty destructive and yeah, especially some of the young males and some of the bigger males actually too can just pull things apart when they want to.

00:34:38:13 - 00:34:47:01

Erica

Okay. So thank you very much, Meridian, for your ongoing support. Andrew can you tell me what your biggest conservation win in recent memory has been?

00:34:47:03 - 00:35:17:05

Andrew

I think one of the biggest wins that we've had in recent years as a team has been the breeding seasons. We've had these really, really big breeding seasons and subsequent ones in a row, producing lots of chicks. And so we've kind of managed to increase the population massively over that time. So as I said before, it's doubled since the start of 2016 and that's a result of these big rimu masts, but with some quite careful management on top as well to try and get the max, the most out of, out of all those eggs and chicks that come along.

00:35:17:07 - 00:35:40:00

Andrew

But I think what's really important from the breeding season is that--what I get excited about is not how many chicks reproduce, it's what we learn and how we change the management. And I mentioned before about having to step back a little bit and make the management of kākāpō less intensive. And this is the time we learn. So the breeding seasons are important and they're really busy because that's when we get all the eggs, but it's also when we can try new things and we can test stuff and step back a little bit.

00:35:40:00 - 00:35:54:19

Andrew

And what happens if we leave eggs to hatch in nests, for example, or what happens if we don't check that nest over there on that island for a month or more, which is what we did in the last breeding season. So it's a time to test and to prove our methods. So I think for me, that's one of the most rewarding things.

00:35:54:19 - 00:35:59:20

Andrew

And one of the areas that I think we've advanced quite a lot in certainly the last decade.

00:35:59:22 - 00:36:08:24

Erica

Yeah, you must get so much out of that. That would be fascinating. What's been on the other side, what's been the biggest disappointment?

00:36:09:01 - 00:36:28:05

Andrew

I think also back to breeding seasons, the 2019 Aspergillosis outbreak, that disease outbreak, that was at a period where everything was going so well, it was coming towards the end of the breeding season, April. We were kind of starting to wind down, and think, wow, this has been amazing. It’d done really, really well. And then suddenly we noticed chicks started dying, and things started to go downhill.

00:36:28:05 - 00:36:45:09

Andrew

And, you know, we had film crews and we had bad weather and we had to try and juggle lots and lots of people. So, yeah, that was that was a tough one. But in a way, it turned into a good thing because we had this amazing collaboration from so many people around the country and around the world to help us.

00:36:45:09 - 00:37:07:22

Andrew

And then that turned into probably one of the best collaborations I've ever been involved with. We had you know, I was working with human doctors from around the world to try and understand this disease. And so yeah, that was in fact that was quite a nice, nice sort of positive aspect of social media. I’ve met all of these people on Twitter who basically pitched in to help from completely different fields, who had never been involved in conservation before.

00:37:07:22 - 00:37:15:10

Andrew

So yeah, I guess we turned that bad situation into a good one with the help of a lot of people.

00:37:15:12 - 00:37:21:16

Erica

Oh, and so many people would be very invested in it as well. Did you say that you took kākāpō to human hospitals?

00:37:21:18 - 00:37:40:05

Andrew

Yeah, Some of them got scanned in human hospitals because there weren't enough facilities available, so they were put in CT scanners. So yeah, the vets who we work with pretty amazing and go to huge lengths to help the kākāpō program. So it was fantastic. And we've been getting more and more involved with having the vets in the field with us too, which is really great.

00:37:40:05 - 00:37:55:05

Andrew

We can actually treat birds on site and we have a vet in our team now, Lydia, our vet too. So that's, that's really, really key. So yeah, those partnerships is all about that partnerships that- as I get more into conservation, that I kind of learn just how important that is.

00:37:55:07 - 00:38:07:22

Erica

Awesome. You work in these incredibly remote areas, all the different islands. Do you have a penknife or an essential item that's like a hack item you take with you all the time and the field.

00:38:07:24 - 00:38:23:06

Andrew

Yeah, it's a bit of a boring one. Head torch. I'd never be without a torch in the field. Even if I'm out in the day, always take a head torch and would always take a backup head torch as well. When we do night work. Once I was carrying some very valuable eggs. They were gold standard eggs down a hill on Whenua Hou, from a nest and my head torch failed and I got out my spare and then the spare failed too. So yeah, head torches are important. And since then I've kind of upgraded and actually were- I was able to get some of the help there and came along and bought a spare head torch.

00:38:39:21 - 00:38:46:09

Andrew

But yeah, a head torch is a bit of an underrated piece of kit. Trying to walk around in the dark without one is tricky.

00:38:46:11 - 00:39:06:12

Erica

It's a very good point. It's so simple. And yet if you don't have three with you, look what can go wrong. Speaking of things going wrong, DOC has expert planners and we go over things with a fine tooth comb, but sometimes nature simply will nature. Can you think of another time where the best laid plans went awry?

00:39:06:14 - 00:39:32:04

Andrew

Yeah, that happens. And as you say, we tried to do everything to prevent it. But, you know, things always surprise us. And I guess a recent example is at Maungatautari  where we’ve released kākāpō in this fenced sanctuary, so a mountain with a fence around it we- the staff there installed this barrier which we helped design which basically we thought would stop kākāpō climbing the fence because these fences are designed to keep animals out and not designed to keep animals in, especially kākāpō.

00:39:32:04 - 00:39:50:13

Andrew

So we put a barrier up to stop the kākāpō climbing the fence and we knew that was a risk. But we always thought there was a possibility that kākāpō might escape from that, from the sanctuary. But it's happened to probably a little bit more than we thought.

And so, yeah, I guess that's one thing where it hasn't gone quite to plan. And but we are working with the team up there to try and adapt that and to try and make sure that we have blocked any possible escape routes. We think they may be climbing up trees and jumping over and they might not even be knowing that they're going over the fence.

00:40:10:01 - 00:40:20:19

Andrew

But yeah, so I guess that's an example of how we try and adapt and we're looking at technology solutions too, to try and keep a closer eye on the kākāpō so we can detect exactly when they do cross the fence.

00:40:20:21 - 00:40:36:18

Erica

Okay. And what's something about nature? I mean, you must find this all the time that just blew your mind when you learned it. We call these “holy crap facts” and DOC staff have some really good ones. I'm sure you've got thousands.

00:40:36:20 - 00:40:56:06

Andrew

This is a slightly longer example, but I'll try and keep it brief and I try and not to do about kākāpō or takahē. I did a bit of work for animal communication for my PhD and one of the things that kind of blows me away is how good animals are communicating and how we always build ourselves up as humans, as these master communicators.

00:40:56:06 - 00:41:20:10

Andrew

But animals are pretty good too. An example, I think, is alarm call networks, which you might have noticed, and people will probably be familiar if there's a cat around, then the blackbirds or the tui or the bellbirds will start going nuts, and they'll make their alarm calls. But what we tend not to know is actually they have different alarm calls for different types of animals, they actually have different alarm calls for different species and for different size of animals.

00:41:20:10 - 00:41:40:02

Andrew

So, for example, birds will have a different alarm call for a large hawk compared to a small falcon flying through the forest. And, and yeah, so that's kind of, I think, a little bit crazy that they have this, this communication thing going on. But that actually is not just confined to single species. There's actually multiple species. So all species will use the same type of course.

00:41:40:02 - 00:41:59:11

Andrew

So all the birds know that same language. And it's not just confined to birds, it's actually confined to mammals too. So squirrels or pigeon. So as I say, if a hawk is flying through a forest, there will be this network, this grapevine going ahead of it around about 100 miles an hour of all the animals talking to each other so that it can know what that species is and what it's doing too.

00:41:59:11 - 00:42:10:13

Andrew

So if the bird is flying, if it's perched, there'll be different alarm calls. Tthere's some pretty sophisticated animal communication that we just don't fully understand. Yeah, and I think we've got lots to learn.

00:42:10:15 - 00:42:20:11

Erica

That's something I'm going to be Googling straight after this. That's very exciting. How come it would be a different one to a falcon, to a hawk if it's the same, you know, it's flying through.

00:42:20:13 - 00:42:42:01

Andrew

Yeah, it's based on a threat, I think, that's the understanding of the threat it poses. And so different size animals and whether it's perched or whether it's flying and what actually pose a different type of threat. So yeah, they have different types of call. And it's, it's this fact that it's between species like we tend very much just to speak within our own species but animals you know communicating within dozens and dozens of species all using the same language I think is pretty cool.

00:42:42:03 - 00:42:57:05

Erica

That's amazing and makes us feel a bit stupid. And is there a moment out in the field that stands out to you where you sort of stop and think, is this what I get to do for a living? Am I the luckiest biologist in the world?

00:42:57:07 - 00:43:18:00

Andrew

Yeah, there's lots and lots of those. The basic one is flying over Fiordland in a helicopter thinking, wow, this is amazing and this is incredible. On the ground, other ones are putting kākāpō chicks into nests. One of the things that we have done in the past is hatched them kākāpō chicks in artificial incubators. And then you have to introduce the chick to the mother.

00:43:18:00 - 00:43:34:08

Andrew

So you sit and wait at the nest with this tiny little chick. You try and keep it warm, sometimes for hours, sometimes you have to feed it. The mother goes away. You're waiting for the mother to leave the nest. When the mother leaves, you've got a short window to slip that chick into that nest. And then you watch on the video and watch as she comes back in and what is she going to do?

00:43:34:08 - 00:43:52:14

Andrew

And I've had that before, where the mother has never seen a chick in her life. She's had an egg, her first egg, and then you have to introduce a chick. And what's going to happen, and I remember one case where the mother came in and she basically just kicked the chick across the nest and was throwing it around and some yeah, this tiny little 30 gram bundle of fluff.

00:43:52:14 - 00:44:07:14

Andrew

But luckily she then started brooding and looked after and turned out to be amazing mother and rearing three chicks. So yeah, they're the kind of things where you, you see things and you feel very, very privileged to be able to sort of witness that behavior, but also to be able to influence that and help out.

00:44:07:16 - 00:44:15:11

Erica

Oh, that must be- have you on tenterhooks when you're watching on the video going ‘Be nice to it. Please be nice to it.’

00:44:15:13 - 00:44:24:07

Andrew

Yes, that's right. And it's 3:00 in the morning as well. And you haven't slept for a while and that sort of thing, too. So it's you know, there's always a bit of pressure going on.

00:44:24:09 - 00:44:33:20

Erica

I know that some conservationists get a little bit grouchy about kākāpō because they feel like they hog the limelight. [How] do you respond to that?

00:44:33:22 - 00:44:54:12

Andrew

Yeah, I think it's it's … it’s definitely something I've noticed. I think kākāpō are the bird that the public love to love and some conservationists kind of love to hate because they do tend to tend to take over a little bit. I think I definitely get the issue there, it is a problem. This whole charismatic megafauna issue that, you know, some people, some species get all the attention.

00:44:54:12 - 00:45:11:01

Andrew

But I think kākāpō are actually a really good gateway species, is how I like to think of them. They get people into conservation who wouldn't otherwise be. And I really, really notice that a lot. We get people interested in and follow us who are not conservation people and you know, they might be tech people or they might be artists or something.

00:45:11:01 - 00:45:27:24

Andrew

And so and they like the tech that we do well, or they just get engaged because they see a kākāpō video online and then they learn about kākāpō and then they learn about the other species. And some of those wider problems, you know, with the problems of predators, for example. And I've had that conversation so many times. So there is a danger that one species can take over.

00:45:27:24 - 00:45:31:00

Andrew

But I think there's definitely those flow on effects.

00:45:31:02 - 00:45:37:22

Erica

I think kākāpō is the gateway drug to the conservation world is like the perfect the perfect thing.

00:45:37:24 - 00:45:55:14

Andrew

Yeah. And I think that I think that works well and I’m always mindful of kākāpō conservation and how can we pay it forward. So the technology is a good example too. We develop technology that then can get used for other species as well. So yeah, we are not going to stop people loving kākāpō, you know, I think that can only be a good thing.

00:45:55:16 - 00:46:02:15

Erica

And thinking back to your first ever day on the job, what advice would you give yourself now?

00:46:02:17 - 00:46:19:17

Andrew

I would say you can probably never ask too many questions. And don't be afraid to say that you don't know stuff. And I kind of had a little bit of an excuse here because I came from astronomy. I wasn't from a conservation background. So I had almost like free reign to ask lots of stupid questions. But yeah, I think that's really, really key.

00:46:19:17 - 00:46:31:01

Andrew

And no one knows everything. And the people that you work with, the people that I work with are absolutely incredible. We have so many people with so much varied knowledge and you can always learn things by asking lots of questions.

00:46:31:03 - 00:46:38:16

Erica

And we're all still learning as well. Like you say, you're learning about management every breeding season. You're learning new things.

00:46:38:18 - 00:46:50:11

Andrew

That's right. Yeah. And you know, it's … this is just one species. There's so much that we don't know. And with so much more work to do. And that's obviously, you know, how can we best do that? How can we find out those things and apply them and help other species as well?

00:46:50:13 - 00:47:00:17

Erica

And if you hadn't discovered kākāpō in this way of doing this job, would you go back to astronomy?

00:47:00:19 - 00:47:19:08

Andrew

I think … I’m pretty committed to conservation and yeah so I definitely will stay in conservation I guess I've switched from one nocturnal career to another nocturnal career, in going from astronomy to kākāpō, but um. Yeah. When I was growing up, I had a love of astronomy and a love of nature and wildlife, and I've kind of moved into that.

00:47:19:08 - 00:47:28:15

Andrew

But it's quite nice, you know, when I'm up on a kākāpō island and I can look up and see some pretty amazing stars and get my astronomy fixed that way too.

00:47:28:17 - 00:47:50:09

Erica

This sounds like the best job and the best life in the world. You're doing, you're doing life correctly Andrew. Thank you so much for being here. All of us in this room have learned so much and I bet our listeners have as well. You can find Andrew on X or Twitter, @takapodigs. And for all the DOC goss, we are @DOCgovtNZ on all platforms.

00:47:50:11 - 00:48:10:21

Erica

If you liked what you heard, tell your friends and leave a review. Honestly, helping us get these stories out to the world really helps the kākāpō. So get to sharing. Andrew, thank you so much for taking the time. I have love talking to you. I hope you're prepared for the influx of job applications you're about to receive. Mine will be the top of the pile.

00:48:10:23 - 00:48:26:19

Andrew

Thank you, Erica. And yeah, it's been great and I’ve been a long time admirer of the podcast. So it's great to be at a talk here and … just to everyone who's been listening it's just yeah thanks for all the interest and support that we have for kākāpō.

And if you want to do one thing to help kākāpō, just please tell a friend about them and yep, just spread the word. I think that's probably the number one thing. And so, yeah, thank you.

00:48:30:22 - 00:48:32:05

Erica

Kia ora Andrew.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:11:07 
Erica 
Kia ora koutou katoa, hello to you all. I'm very excited to welcome to the show, the world's most renowned kākāpō scientist, Dr. Andrew Digby, kia ora Andrew.  
  
00:00:11:07 - 00:00:12:22 
Andrew 
Kia ora Erica, it's great to be here. 
  
00:00:12:24 - 00:00:34:10 
Erica 
Thanks for coming! Andrew is an expert in all things kākāpō. You may know him from the-artist-formerly-known-as-Twitter, where he offers behind the scenes insights into the world of kākāpō and takahē. Andrew’s social media promise is “come for the videos, stay for the science”, and that is exactly what we're doing today. Let's talk about the science of kākāpō recovery. 
  
00:00:34:12 - 00:00:37:24 
Erica 
Would you like to introduce yourself to our lovely listeners, Andrew? 
  
00:00:38:01 - 00:00:55:20  
Andrew 
Yeah, sure. Tēnā koutou katoa, ko Andrew Digby ahau. 
Ko te Kaitohutohu Pūtaiao o kākāpō me takahē oo Te Papa Atawhai e mahi ana. 
So I am Andrew Digby and I'm the Science Advisor for kākāpō and takahē with the Department of Conservation. 
  
00:00:55:22 - 00:01:04:20 
Erica 
Kia ora. Is that just the coolest job in the world? I mean, it's DOC, and then it's kākāpō and takahē. Tell us about your role at Te Papa Atawhai. 
  
00:01:04:22 - 00:01:21:10 
Andrew 
Yeah, I think I'm very, very lucky, I get to look after and help look after these amazing birds. I'm responsible for the for the science component of both of those recovery programs with the Department of Conservation—So helping to understand what it is that we don't know and how do we find it out. 
  
00:01:21:12 - 00:01:26:17 
Erica 
That's huge. That's a big responsibility. How did you get into this line of work? 
  
00:01:26:19 - 00:01:45:11 
Andrew 
Yeah. So I am … I come from a slightly different background. I used to be an astronomer, and I've ended up switching careers to conservation biology. I did a Ph.D. with kiwi and kind of came into this role after that. So I'm not kind of your traditional conservation person. I come from a little bit of a different background, which I think sometimes helps. 
  
00:01:45:12 - 00:01:52:20 
Erica 
Yeah, definitely, and astronomy, it seems like such a change of path. And you're not a Kiwi by the sounds of it. 
  
00:01:52:22 - 00:02:00:07 
Andrew 
Yeah, no, I grew up in the UK and studied there. I lived in America for a while and came to New Zealand about 18 years ago. 
  
00:02:00:09 - 00:02:01:18 
Erica 
And didn't leave. 
  
00:02:01:20 - 00:02:04:20 
Andrew 
No and didn't leave. This is home now. 
  
00:02:04:22 - 00:02:08:18 
Erica 
And what does an average day entail for you and your work now? 
  
00:02:08:20 - 00:02:27:23 
Andrew 
Yeah, it's probably a clichéd answer, but there's no such thing as an average day and it really depends. Quite a lot of the time I'm behind a desk helping to manage our programs, analyzing data, that sort of thing. But also, quite a bit of the time—the part I really, really love—is getting out to the field, getting my boots on, getting out onto the islands or into the mountains, and then yeah, doing that, doing the mahi on the ground. 
  
00:02:28:00 - 00:02:32:22 
Erica 
What's the most unexpected thing you've encountered in the field? 
  
00:02:32:24 - 00:02:56:23 
Andrew 
Um, most unexpected thing? I think … seeing groups of kākāpō has been quite unusual to see. We've always traditionally thought of kākāpō as solitary animals and birds that just live by themselves. But we are seeing more and more often now, kākāpō in groups. And, you know, I've seen- we've found a couple of juveniles in the same hole. 
  
00:02:56:24 - 00:03:15:12 
Andrew 
I've seen two birds in the same tree. Some of our team has seen up to five birds in the same tree. So yeah, that's definitely a case of that, we're learning more and more about them and what we thought was the case is actually … is actually not true. And then as we start to restore kākāpō to their more natural numbers, we’re actually beginning to see some of these behaviors which are normal. But we didn't think they were. 
  
00:03:18:17 - 00:03:27:00 
Erica 
Ok, so they're not solitary. And what I've heard that the kind of younger ones in breeding season might hang out altogether? 
  
00:03:27:02 - 00:03:51:23 
Andrew 
Yeah, that's right. The teenage kākāpō really can behave a little bit like human teenagers sometimes—or some human teenagers. They can be pretty noisy at night and they muck around. If you're trying to sleep in a tent, they will be … [well] I've had like four or five juvenile males around the tent all making noises. They'll be like peeking out from behind trees, practicing booming and just climbing around the tent, making a bit of a nuisance of themselves really. It's, it's pretty amazing, it’s pretty endearing to see. 
  
00:03:55:00 - 00:04:13:00 
Erica 
That's the best way to lose sleep ever. That sounds amazing. Now, most of our listeners will know what kākāpō are, the flightless green parrot, endemic, endangered. But few will have seen one. I have never seen one. What might immediately stand out to someone encountering a kākāpō for the first time? 
  
00:04:13:02 - 00:04:27:11 
Andrew 
There's two things. One is the camouflage. It’s just how hard they are to see when you see them in their natural setting in the bush. And I've stood two meters from a kākāpō—I was able to smell it, but I couldn't see it. I was actively looking for it, but could not see it, and it was literally two meters away. 
  
00:04:27:15 - 00:04:48:24 
Andrew 
The camouflage is that good. So I think that's number one. And number two is the size. Most people, when they see a kākāpō for the first time, the first thing they always say is, oh it's much bigger than I thought it would be. And they are big birds. So, you know, you can get up to four kilograms for a male and they're quite a decent size, especially when you're like holding one on your lap, doing a health check or something like that. 
  
00:04:49:01 - 00:04:54:07 
Erica 
And I have two questions from that. How, how big, what ball size are we talking? 
  
00:04:54:09 - 00:05:10:22 
Andrew 
…If they're standing on the ground they'll be just below sort of knee high sort of thing. Yeah. So the kind of be 50 centimeters long as well so, yeah, a few kilograms and they've got very big claws, too. So that kind of makes them look a little bit bigger as well. 
  
00:05:10:24 - 00:05:13:18 
Erica 
And what do they smell like to you? 
  
00:05:13:20 - 00:05:30:15 
Andrew 
The smell [question] is interesting. It's so hard to describe smells, but everyone always says musty, which kind of is true, and [kākāpō] have a very sweet smell. The males in breeding season are the ones that smell the strongest. And it's quite a floral sort of smell, a little bit earthy and yeah, not a bad smell at all. 
  
00:05:30:15 - 00:05:47:06 
Andrew 
And it's really strong. So as you're walking along the track, you will be able to smell a kākāpō which is nearby and, and that's, that's humans with our rubbish noses. So yeah, yeah. So the scent is really unique. It's quite … it's very, very strong. 
  
00:05:47:08 - 00:05:54:02 
Erica 
And I know everybody loves kākāpō, but, but what do you most like about it? What draws you to the species? 
  
00:05:54:04 - 00:06:17:20 
Andrew 
I like (and sorry, this is me putting my scientist hat on) I like that they don't follow the rules, that they're different. And pretty much every time we study something about kākāpō that- we find out that they’re just different to every other bird and often most other mammals as well. So, you know, for example, we've done some work on vitamin D and vitamin D, the use of vitamin D, and the world of vitamin D in kākāpō seems to be completely different from any other vertebrate as we understand it. 
  
00:06:17:20 - 00:06:32:15 
Andrew 
It's like- and we're looking at aging kākāpō and all the rules that you have of how to age birds and different tests you can do. They don't work on kākāpō. So there's, you know, lots and lots of examples. Every time we study something new about them, we find out, yip they just do not follow the rules. 
  
00:06:32:17 - 00:06:36:04 
Erica 
And can they look after themselves? 
  
00:06:36:06 - 00:07:03:09 
Andrew 
Yeah, they can. Yeah. They can definitely hold their own. And they're actually probably a little bit fiercer than you might think. And so yeah, I've seen a female kākāpō kill a petrel in front of my eyes, well, it was on a video feed from a nest. But that often happens if they tend to share nests or burrows. So a petrel will be trying to roost where a kākāpō has nested and the kākāpō doesn't like petrel coming into its nests and the fighting is quite ferocious. 
  
00:07:03:09 - 00:07:20:01 
Andrew 
They'll use their claws and their bill and they will quickly dispatch the petrol. The problem from a conservation point of view is that in the nest often there'll be some quite delicate eggs and when there's a big fight going on then they tend to get broken. So yeah, that causes issues. But yeah, they can definitely hold their own and they will hold their own against people as well. 
  
00:07:20:01 - 00:07:36:14 
Andrew 
So we have some individuals which will defend their nest pretty robustly against people. It's always a good idea to wear pretty strong gaiters when you are going to a kākāpō nest of those ones, those particular individuals too, to you to give yourself a bit of protection. They’ll try and go for your shins and your knees. 
  
00:07:36:16 - 00:07:39:00 
Erica 
So you've been attacked by kākāpō? 
  
00:07:39:02 - 00:07:52:15 
Andrew 
Yeah, I have been attacked by a few kākāpō. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of a slightly unnerving experience and you have to just be as defensive as possible. But yeah, just don't hurt the kākāpō. Or let them hurt you, and just get out of there as quickly as possible. 
  
00:07:52:17 - 00:08:02:20 
Erica 
That's- oh my gosh. It’s all for the good of conservation and, you do know notice personality differences across chicks who were hand-reared and those who weren't. 
  
00:08:02:22 - 00:08:19:02 
Andrew 
Yeah, we do. So we try and hand-reared kākāpō as little as possible, but sometimes it's necessary to save the life of that kākāpō. And we do tend to notice that those kākāpō which are hand-reared, do not have a fear of humans as much, and they tend not to like humans as much either. They tend to be the ones which are a little bit more aggressive. 
  
00:08:19:04 - 00:08:42:17 
Andrew 
And so for example, some of our founder kākāpō, (which are the original kākāpō found on Rakiura Stuart Island and Fiordland back in the seventies and eighties), they tend to be quite docile and quite calm. It's kind of- it seems like they don't actually recognize humans as a threat or a predator at all, whereas the hand-reared kākāpō kind of know humans and they kind of have learned not to like us very much and they're certainly not scared of us. 
  
00:08:42:17 - 00:08:51:21 
Andrew 
And yeah, so it does vary a lot from between individuals too. So that's one of the crazy things I really notice about kākāpō is just the individual variation. 
  
00:08:51:23 - 00:09:01:08 
Erica 
Gosh that is the opposite of what I would have thought. I would have thought that the kind of hand-reared ones would be a bit more chilled around people. But no, they don't like you. 
  
00:09:01:10 - 00:09:13:03 
Andrew 
Yes, some are, some are, but quite a few of them aren't. And they tend to be quite vocal and noisy and yeah, so we do notice a lot of differences and it doesn't follow set rules but they do, there are these tendencies. 
  
00:09:13:05 - 00:09:20:05 
Erica 
Okay what's the kind of weirdest or most interesting thing you've seen kākāpō do? 
  
00:09:20:07 - 00:09:40:14 
Andrew 
I think the killing the seabird is quite a weird one. Yeah. And the males actually, when they're at their bowls, will also kill seabirds as well, kill petrels which get close to their bowls too, and … might possibly sometimes try and mate with the dead seabird as well. There’s some crazy things going on. Another thing that springs to mind is that they're pretty fierce, we’d found a male who had pretty much been scalped by another kākāpō in the last breeding season and … they’re territorial, [so] they will defend their display sites and they'll have quite a … they'll have some pretty robust fights. Wwe found one, his activity was low, so went to check on him and he pretty much lost all of the feathers and all of the skin from the top of his head. 
 
[At this point, everyone in the room had horrified faces] 
  
00:09:58:12 - 00:10:14:20 
Andrew 
He had to go to hospital and recovered well. But um yeah, we have had males kill each other too. We had one, you know, bit another one's jugular and killed it, that sort of thing. So yeah, they are robust, they're not, they're not necessarily the fluffy, docile things that they might appear to be, but when they need to, they can stick up for themselves. 
  
00:10:14:22 - 00:10:21:19 
Erica 
Robust, not like the misleading marketing that we've been we've been told, No, not the soft toy. 
  
00:10:21:21 - 00:10:23:13 
Andrew 
Yeah, that's right. 
  
00:10:23:15 - 00:10:32:18 
Erica 
And you mentioned them trying to breed, breeding is one of the biggest challenges, right? And it's quite unusual. Can you talk us through that. 
  
00:10:32:20 - 00:10:54:09 
Andrew 
Kākāpō infertility is probably the biggest issue that we have, or actually it’s not technically infertility. It's low hatching rates. So of about all of the eggs that are laid, only about half of them hatch into kākāpō and only about a third of them turn into kākāpō that fledge. So the productivity rate is very low. Normally in birds that figure would be up at like 90% or something. 
  
00:10:54:12 - 00:11:14:17 
Andrew 
Even with a species like takahē, which has been through a similar sort of genetic bottleneck, that's about 80% or so fertility. So kākāpō are and have real problems with the fertility. We think it's mostly a genetic basis due to that inbreeding that they've had. So they’ve been through this tiny, tiny population bottleneck, there's not much genetic variation. So we think that's the cause. 
  
00:11:14:17 - 00:11:32:20 
Andrew 
But there are other possibilities, you know, for things like diet, for example, could possibly play into that fertility. So that's kind of why we're doing quite a lot of research to understand more about that and try and understand how to mitigate it. And one of the things that we've discovered recently is we think maybe population density may be affected by and may affect fertility as well. 
  
00:11:33:00 - 00:11:50:14 
Andrew 
And so the more females there are, there tends to- seems to be, some sort of mate guarding going on. The more times a female mates, the more fertile her clutches as well. So there's quite a lot of things that, you know, we're trying to understand to try and turn that around and try and improve that fertility. 
  
00:11:50:16 - 00:11:56:18 
Erica 
Okay. Can you walk us through how the breeding season works and what your role is during that time? 
  
00:11:56:20 - 00:12:12:18 
Andrew 
Yeah, sure. So kākāpō breeding seasons are a big deal. And one of the unusual things is that kākāpō don't breed every year like most birds do. They only breed about every 2 to 4 years. And that's in response to the masting, or the mass fruiting of certain tree species. So when it does happen, it's a really, really big deal. 
  
00:12:12:24 - 00:12:43:18 
Andrew 
There are very few kākāpō, so we want to make sure every single egg that's laid has got as much chance of surviving to a fully grown kākāpō as possible. So we manage it very intensively. So we'll have teams on islands where kākāpō are nesting and we will set up a lot of electronic monitoring gear at the nest. So we have cameras at the nest, we have proximity detector sensors, we'll have data loggers so we can tell remotely when the kākāpō is at the nest, how long it's been there, what its activity is like on the nest, how well it's incubating, that sort of thing.  
  
00:12:43:18 - 00:13:03:07 
Andrew 
So that's sort of quite an intensive process. And we will monitor the eggs, we'll look after the eggs and make sure that they're fertile. If they’re not fertile we’ll remove them. And then when the chicks hatch, we pay a lot of attention to the chicks. So depending on the value of the chick, we will weigh it, sometimes every night, sometimes every three nights or sometimes every week, and we'll give it a health check. 
  
00:13:03:07 - 00:13:19:24 
Andrew 
So that goes right throughout the whole process until the chick fledges, around about 70 days old. So, yeah, each nest gets a lot of attention. And we'll follow those chicks once they fledge, they’ll hang out with their mother for quite a few months, and we'll follow them for about the next six, six months or so. Quite intensively. 
  
00:13:20:04 - 00:13:41:01 
Andrew 
So that whole process from start to finish normally takes about a year or so. That includes things like artificial insemination, which we do to try and improve the fertility of kākāpō, to try and improve the representation of some individuals which have never bred before. And so yeah, there's I guess there's a lot of different facets to the breeding season, and my role is a bit of a mix. 
  
00:13:41:01 - 00:13:59:19 
Andrew 
I'll kind of help manage that process and provide some technical oversight, but I'm also a pair of boots on the ground, I’m a ranger too, so yeah, love doing that. And the whole team does that. We all basically spend time on the islands. We're all out at nighttime, checking nests, sleeping in tents, up on the tops of islands near nests to look after the chicks in the eggs, that sort of thing. 
  
00:13:59:19 - 00:14:05:11 
Andrew 
So, you know, pretty much everyone just mucks in and we all contribute pretty evenly. 
  
00:14:05:13 - 00:14:12:20 
Erica 
That sounds like kind of a wonderful experience. What do you mean by the value of the chick? Do you mean how certain it is to survive? 
  
00:14:12:22 - 00:14:35:12 
Andrew 
Um no, actually we have a bit of a—this might sound slightly mercenary, but we have to do this. So we have a scoring system for how valuable each chick is and we base it on its genetics. So if it's got really rare genetics and it's, you know, quite unrelated to other individuals, it's lineage is not very well represented. We actually have a scoring system of um, gold, silver, bronze, we have chalk as the lowest one. 
  
00:14:35:12 - 00:14:54:01 
Andrew 
So if it’s a gold chick it gets checked every night, if it's a chalk check, it gets checked every week. So- and the reason we do that is because the kākāpō conservation is really intensive. And I could not believe when I first joined the program how intensive it is. It's probably one of the most intensively managed species in the wild, in the world, I would say.  
   
00:14:54:03 - 00:15:11:04 
Andrew 
But that's not sustainable in the long term. And so one of the things that we have to do is step back and we try each breeding season to really, really make an effort to do that. And one of the ways of stepping back as well, you don't treat all birds equally and you cannot continue as the population grows to check every chick, every night. 
  
00:15:11:08 - 00:15:20:24 
Andrew 
We have to, you know, take some steps to reduce that intensity. And so that's what we're doing here to try and find a way to do that in a structured way, which kind of makes sense from a population point of view. 
  
00:15:21:01 - 00:15:31:18 
Erica 
Yeah, it does. It sounds a little bit mercenary at the start, but it must be so intensive for … for the gold chicks and for you. You can't do everything. 
  
00:15:31:20 - 00:15:48:14 
Andrew 
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we base it on other things as well as like their weight and how they're doing for example. So if a chick looks like it's doing quite well for them, we might not check it for a few nights, for example. And we're also mindful of the fact that every time we check a chick and we interact with kākāpō, we might be having some impact that we're not aware of. 
  
00:15:48:16 - 00:15:59:20 
Andrew 
Yeah, it's important to try and keep things as natural as possible. The idea is to give as light a touch as possible, but not so light that birds die. So yeah, striking that balance. 
  
00:15:59:22 - 00:16:02:22 
Erica 
Tell me about lek mating. 
  
00:16:02:24 - 00:16:23:15 
Andrew 
Yeah. So lek mating is … kākāpō are the only parrot species which lek mate, and that basically is a group mating system. Lek means play in Swedish, actually. And so what happens with kākāpō is that the males congregate in certain areas and they display to the females they basically have a singing competition and then the females, there's a female choice mating system. 
  
00:16:23:15 - 00:16:39:14 
Andrew 
So the females basically go around all the males, choose the one that they like and then they'll mate with them. And sometimes they’ll mate with more than one male, but they often visit lots of males and for whatever reason decide they don't like that one. They'll go to this other one over there. So yeah, that's how they mate, it means that we can't really control it that much. 
  
00:16:39:14 - 00:16:51:01 
Andrew 
So from a conservation management point of view, it's an interesting mating system and it's kind of crazy to be on a kākāpō island in a in a breeding season here. All the males booming and— 
  
00:16:51:06 - 00:16:52:17 
Erica 
Must be loud. Yeah. 
  
00:16:52:19 - 00:17:09:20 
Andrew 
Yeah, it is loud and they can get quite aggressive to you. And like a few times I've had a male come booming and come running at you, booming at you to try and chase you off his display site because they defend it against other kākāpō and- 
Erica 
Oh because you’re a threat? 
Andrew 
 They don't like anyone being there. So yeah, when they run and boom at the same time it sounds quite weird. 
  
00:17:09:20 - 00:17:13:12 
Andrew 
So yeah, it's quite an unusual sound. 
  
00:17:13:14 - 00:17:24:24 
Erica 
Wow! Um let's talk about disease. Another big thing for kākāpō. A few years ago there was a big aspergillosis outbreak during breeding season. Can you give us a bit of an overview of that? 
  
00:17:25:01 - 00:17:45:00 
Andrew 
Yeah, so just um, so briefly on that, aspergillosis is a fungal pneumonia, it affects humans too. It's a big human health problem. We hadn't really had much of a problem with it with kākāpō before, only one case. But in 2019 we had a big outbreak in a breeding season affecting females and chicks. We had 21 individuals affected, nine died as a result of that. 
  
00:17:45:05 - 00:18:09:06 
Andrew 
It was a huge effort. We ended up flying just over 50 kākāpō off the island to hospitals, including human hospitals, to get them CT scanned. Pretty much most of the vets in New Zealand, wildlife vets, helped and pitched in. We had a big response internationally as well to try and understand what caused this. And so yeah, it was a pretty massive task and in fact we actually had a small aspergillosis outbreak in 2022, the following breeding season too. 
  
00:18:09:07 - 00:18:27:13 
Andrew 
But yeah, it was on a smaller scale, so it's definitely a problem. It seems to be a possibly a growing problem. We're trying to understand a bit more about what causes it and whether our cons- whether our management is even implicated in some way. And because there’s some already unusual things we found out about the type of fungus which caused this. 
  
00:18:27:15 - 00:18:37:06 
Andrew 
So yeah, it's an ongoing research, but definitely disease is one of those things that’s a real concern for kākāpō and for any critically endangered species where you've only got a few individuals. 
   
00:19:03:21 - 00:19:28:18 
Erica 
Look forward to hearing how that goes. Now Aspergillosis was a new term for kākāpō lovers. Ah but there's another disease with a name that's much more straightforward. Kind of does what it says on the tin. Kākāpō are highly susceptible to a disease called crusty butt. At the risk of asking you to state the obvious, Dr. Digby, is crusty butt. 
  
00:19:28:20 - 00:19:50:06 
Andrew 
Crusty butt, crusty bum, cloacitis. Yeah, it kind of does what it says on the tin, and it's basically you get these ulcerations and sores around the cloaca of the kākāpō. So that's where the kākāpō poo’s out of basically. So, and that's the all purpose hole for birds, for mating and for pooing. And so this is actually a disease which has caused us quite a lot of problems. 
  
00:19:50:06 - 00:20:16:19 
Andrew 
It started in 2002, the first time we, we noticed it so it’s been around for more than 20 years and it's affected quite a lot of the kākāpō, we’re at over 40 cases of cloacitis now. And about half of those have actually happened in the last three years. So it's accelerating, but we don't know what causes it. We don't know if it's a virus, if it's a bacteria, if it's something like an autoimmune disease, like some inflammatory bowel disease in human, for example.  
  
00:20:16:21 - 00:20:30:18 
Andrew 
So it's yeah, we've been doing a lot of research and we're still doing some research at the moment to try and understand what causes it. And then once we know what causes it, we can try and, try and mitigate it. We can treat it. So if an individual gets it, we find an individual with it, we can treat it. 
  
00:20:30:18 - 00:20:51:17 
Andrew 
We normally send them to hospital. Sometimes we can treat them on the islands, but we can treat it sort of topically and give them some treatment on islands and they recover. We’ve probably had some individuals die from it. And so it would be fatal left unchecked. But yeah, it's one of those things which is causing us quite a few headaches in terms of management, for example, quarantining and that sort of thing. 
  
00:20:51:19 - 00:21:00:18 
Erica 
Are kākāpō just more susceptible to disease than other birds, or do you just notice the impacts because there are only so many of them? 
  
00:21:00:20 - 00:21:23:23 
Andrew 
It might be that they're more susceptible because of their genetic issues, that that low genetic variation could possibly make them more susceptible. So if you have individuals which are very closely related, then you could get a disease come along, which wipes most of the population out. That's something you have to be really careful about with small populations. And it might also be because we monitor them quite closely that we know other birds do get sick too. 
  
00:21:23:23 - 00:21:35:09 
Andrew 
Um but I think it's partly the fact that when you've got such a small population, you know, even a few disease cases can have a big impact on the size of that population and the impacts. So I think that's part of it too. 
  
00:21:35:11 - 00:21:43:01 
Erica 
Yeah. And what are we doing to, to kind of mitigate this? 
  
00:21:43:03 - 00:22:00:01 
Andrew 
Yeah. So yeah, we monitor kākāpō pretty closely. Each kākāpō has got its activity tracker, pretty much its own Fitbit, and we can monitor those remotely. So I could log on now and look online and see what the activity of kākāpō has been. So if a kākāpō gets sick, we can see a drop in activity and then we can intervene. 
  
00:22:00:03 - 00:22:19:16 
Andrew 
And with things like avian influenza on the horizon, you know, that's been causing devastation around the world. It hasn't hit New Zealand yet, but it's definitely something that that we're preparing for and readying ourselves for in case it comes to New Zealand. And, you know, with a disease like that, you could easily lose, you know, half a population and half a species, even if you've got a small number of birds. 
  
00:22:19:16 - 00:22:22:17 
Andrew 
So yeah, we have to be pretty vigilant about that sort of thing. 
  
00:22:22:19 - 00:22:40:13 
Erica 
Yeah, it's like having all your eggs in one basket and how, how dangerous that can be, I guess. I love that kākāpō have Fitbits. Essentially. Kākāpō tech is such a fascinating world. Can we talk a bit about gene sequencing? What is that? 
  
00:22:40:15 - 00:23:01:04 
Andrew 
So, yeah, the gene sequencing started back in 2015 when a group in the United States sequenced the genome of the kākāpō for the first time. So that's basically picking one individual and sequencing all of the genes of that individual. So you get a complete map of the genes on that particular individual. But at the time for kākāpō, there was only 125 kākāpō in existence. 
  
00:23:01:04 - 00:23:19:19 
Andrew 
So we thought if we've done one, maybe we can do all of them, let’s do all 125 of them, and get all of the genomes for all of the kākāpō. And the reason we wanted to do that is because kākāpō are managed really individually, like every kākāpō has got its own name. Every kākāpō has its own transmitter, every kākāpō has its own feed station and we have individual behaviors that we know about. 
  
00:23:19:19 - 00:23:39:04 
Andrew 
We treat them, we manage them separately. So having genetic information on top of that for each individual is a natural progression. So we started up a program to do that. We sequenced all 125 and we have the populations grown since then and we've now actually got nearly 350 kākāpō genomes. So that's all of the living birds and quite a few of the dead ones too. 
  
00:23:39:09 - 00:24:03:02 
Andrew 
And I think that's probably the most comprehensive gene library of any species in the world. I think. So that's an amazing resource that we have. And we've opened that up to anyone around the world who wants to use those data to research and particularly we're keen on, how can that research, how can that genetic data teach us some of the things that are problem problems for kākāpō. So things like infertility, for example, and disease. 
  
00:24:03:03 - 00:24:09:02 
Andrew 
And so yeah, how can, how can we use that genetic data to understand those problems. 
  
00:24:09:04 - 00:24:15:11 
Erica 
Wow, and did the genome sequencing of every living kākāpō help you make conservation decisions going forward? 
  
00:24:15:13 - 00:24:36:21 
Andrew 
Yes, it has, so we’re already using that information for things like translocation, for artificial insemination, we now are developing some tools with the help of researchers at Genomics Aotearoa at the University of Otago and elsewhere, to um, to provide tools to understand things like how heavy should a chick be at certain stages in its in its growth, based on its genetics, based on who its parents are.  
  
00:24:36:21 - 00:24:45:07 
Andrew 
So we kind of have a bit of a template to be able to use this genetic information to help guide the management in a practical sort of sense on the ground. 
  
00:24:45:09 - 00:24:55:08 
Erica 
I love science. That's fantastic. Can you tell me a bit about the research into ancient diets of kākāpō? How do you know what they used to eat? 
  
00:24:55:10 - 00:25:12:13 
Andrew 
Yeah, so I guess this comes back down to poo, and you’d be kind of surprised about how often poo is useful in conservation. And we have a lot of conversations about poo. And so this is actually really interesting because one of the things about kākāpō is we have a little bit of an artificial situation. We have a remnant population. 
  
00:25:12:13 - 00:25:36:00 
Andrew 
We don't know what's natural, but by looking at things like fossilized poo from hundreds or thousands of years ago, we can understand more about what they ate, what, where they lived, what they bred in response to, and some work done by researchers at Manaaki Whenua – Landcare Research, has done this and taught us quite a few things, for example, about the importance of beech trees and beech forest ecosystems to kākāpō breeding.  
  
00:25:36:04 - 00:25:52:12 
Andrew 
And that's something we just don't see. We have not seen kākāpō breeding in response to beech in the modern era, but it's actually really important because there's a lot of good beech habitat in New Zealand and if we can identify that and be sure that that's a good habitat for kākāpō, that suddenly opens up more possibilities for where we can put them. 
  
00:25:52:14 - 00:26:02:06 
Erica 
Those are some of the fascinating innovations, and there are also some that sound highly questionable. Could you tell us about the spermcopter. 
  
00:26:02:08 - 00:26:18:19 
Andrew 
Oh the spermcopter? Yes. So the spermcopter is actually something which I think kind of worked, and it has a reason. So we do artificial insemination in kākāpō. And one of the problems when you do artificial insemination is that you need to get the sperm from the male to the female as quickly as possible, because then you have a greater chance of success. 
  
00:26:18:21 - 00:26:36:05 
Andrew 
And the problem with kākāpō is that often they will be up trees and they will often be on different sides of an island. So it might take, I say, an hour and a half or so to get from the male to the female, if you're walking. And so we were starting to do some work with drones and we thought, well, how about we fly the sperm from the male to the female? 
  
00:26:36:07 - 00:26:54:17 
Andrew 
And we worked out that we could fly what would normally take an hour and a half to walk in about 8 minutes. And so we did that in 2019 breeding season. We basically bought a commercial drone and just adapted it slightly and put a little container on it. And we flew the sperm from the male, across the island to the female, to get it there much more quickly. 
  
00:26:54:17 - 00:27:09:03 
Andrew 
That’s, that's kind of the sort of thing that I'm- we always try and think a little bit outside the box in the program and do some crazy things. And you might have seen things like the kākāpō helmet, for example. And so yeah, there's always, always things like that and some of, some things work, some things don't. 
  
00:27:09:03 - 00:27:12:10 
Andrew
But you know, you've got to be bold and try these things sometimes. 

[PART ONE OUTRO] 

Erica 
As you’ve just heard there, Andrew has so many brilliant stories that we decided to split his episode into two parts. 
In part two, he answers some questions sent in by you – our wonderful listeners!  
We also delve into some of kākāpō conservation’s biggest wins, as well as the disappointments, the challenges, and the continual learnings from managing such an intriguing and unusual species. 
You won’t want to miss it. 

[Bird song: Dawn chorus with tūī in the foreground]

[Sound FX: Bell]

[Erica]

Kia ora! I'm Erica Wilkinson and this is the DOC Sounds of Science podcast.

[Music]

Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science.

[Music]

To celebrate summer in Aotearoa, we’ve put together a supercut of our favourite moments from recent episodes.

Cue this up before you head off on a long drive, or add it to your summer playlist. And for our Northern Hemisphere friends, maybe put it on as you cozy up with a cuppa.

From cryptic species to sharks to seal reproduction—this supercut is packed to the brim with all the best bits from previous episodes.

And if that’s still not enough for you, each guest has a full-length episode, well worth diving into the show archives for.

[Erica segue 1 - Jess]

First up is ecologist Jess Scrimgeour.

Jess is one of the country’s premier ecologists. She's worked with creatures big and small and she’s on a crusade to make us fall in love with the cryptic species of Aotearoa - the hard to see, hard to hear, or hard to find critters. We spoke to Jess for episode 18 - a must-listen if you ask us. Here she is.

Jess Extract

[Jess]

I personally am on a bit of a crusade to bring these cryptic species up in profile so that if you can see the effort that goes into the things people care for, like kiwi, like kākāpō, and we could bring that to other species where people don't know that they're there, or they're hard to love. Well, I'm here to tell you how lovable they are. 

And so my crusade is on. 

[Erica]

Begins now. 

[Jess]

So it begins. 

[Erica]

So let's start: what is a cryptic species? 

[Jess]

OK, so a cryptic species is a species that is hard to find. So they're not very obvious and not a lot of people know about them. So there's a bit of mystery around them. I think that it's either. So, for instance, pekapeka, bats, they're only found at nighttime, so they're not visible. And when they do fly around, they use no sound.

So the way they navigate is with echolocation, in a hearing range that humans can't pick up without a device. And so you could wander around the bush or you like and even know that right above you as all this life, all this activity happening, or they are incredibly good at camouflaging themselves. So you can be in the bush going for a walk and not know that there is this really interesting bug sitting there or a frog or a lizard.

And so, yes, so cryptic species, just hard to find, and a bit of a challenge really.

[Erica]

But just as important as kākāpō. 

[Jess]

Exactly. 

[Erica]

What are your favourites of the cryptics. Do you have one? 

[Jess]

If I had to think about a favourite, it’s the one that catches you by surprise. I think. So this is something that I really like about cryptic species. So if I go back to that snail, Wainuia clarki, it's the size of a 50 cent piece and it's a brown. It’s a devil of a thing to find in leaf litter, you really have to work for it. And they hide from you and it sits there, but when they eventually decide to poke a hit out, they're just this radiant purple colour that completely catches you by surprise. 

And that's the kind of stuff that really connects you to it. And one of my other favourites that has a similar effect, talking about people is, is the peripatus. Now, the peripatus is something that hides from you and you kind of stumble across them. And so when I'm out there doing snail monitoring, occasionally, if you're lucky, you get this beautiful, ‘looks-like-a worm-but-isn’t.

It's called well, its common name is called a velvet worm. But what's amazing about it is that it is unchanged for the last 500 million years. So it's not related to a worm. It's not related to an insect. It's somewhere in between. And they reckon it's going to be in the same clade as like, tardigrades

Which are the little water bears that you know, are indestructible, can exist in space kind of thing. But what I like about the peripatus, one: when you find it, it's like a treasure that you found. But two: the surprise factor is that when it gets scared or it's trying to catch something, it spits this sticky substance at you, which catches you by surprise.

So I think when it comes to choosing a favourite, it's really hard to they've all got these amazing qualities that I have a particular fondness for those that kind of catch you by surprise.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica segue 2 - Clinton]

The species we’re chatting about next will hopefully not catch you by surprise this summer!

Renowned shark expert Clinton Duffy joined us for episode 17. His episode has proven to be a favourite among listeners. Here, Clinton shares his niche shark knowledge along with some pretty incredible on-the-job stories.

In the following clip, Clinton gives us a run through of shark reproduction… which is so amazing and varied, it could have come from a sci-fi writer’s brain…

Clinton extract

[Erica]

Can we talk about shark reproduction? I understand it's extremely varied and sometimes not so kind. Can you tell us about it?

[Clinton]

Yeah I mean, sharks have, you know, have experimented with virtually every form of reproduction that is known to the vertebrate animals. One of the simplest forms of shark reproduction involves egg laying – and that's a relatively small number of sharks lay eggs.

Most of the skates lay eggs, but the stingrays and majority of sharks give birth to live young. Things like dog fishes, which retain the eggs inside the female, and the eggs actually hatch inside the female and then the young live off the yolk sac, to otherwise where they hatch out inside the uterus. And the mother produces a material called uterine milk, which the embryo drinks.

And then in extreme cases the females produce eggs, which the developing embryos eat throughout their development.

And then at a very, very far end of that extreme, the two largest embryos in the uterus, eat all the siblings, so that in those species – and it's a very small number – it's really mainly the grey nurse shark and the deep-water nurse shark. The female only gives birth to a maximum of two young at a time. And then then you move up the ladder to things like the whaler sharks. They have a placenta, so the developing embryo has the placenta, just like a mammalian one. It's derived from different tissues, but it's very, very similar to a mammalian placenta.

[Erica]

Amazing. And is it true that in great whites, they need to swim away from the mother as soon as they come out?

[Clinton]

So it's thought in most species of sharks that females stop feeding while they're giving birth so they don't inadvertently eat their young. Females tend to return to the same area that they were born in to give birth. And then they leave those areas as well, so those areas may become sort of habitually used nursery areas. Some sharks actually breed over a very large area, but many use these habitual nursery areas that they return to every two or three years to give birth and then they leave them and that provides an extra layer of protection for the developing young. So you don't have large adult sharks mooching around that may eat you.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica segue 3 - Jack]

Next up, we have Jack Mace from episode 16. There aren’t many jobs with us that Jack hasn’t turned his hand to. Remote island ranger, species monitor, trapper, hunter, ranger trainer, systems designer, operations manager – you name it, Jack has probably done it.

He’s deeply passionate about conservation and has accumulated a lot of great stories. He has a particular love for the Chatham Islands, and in the following clip he gives us some examples of why.

Jack extract

[Erica]

What's something that you tell other people to blow their minds? What's the kind of thing that you tell people that aren't conservationist maybe.

[Jack]

So first, is that on the Chatham Islands people use daisies for firewood and for fence posts. So the largest tree on the island is called akeake in te reo Māori or hakapiri in Moriori. And it's actually a daisy. It's this incredible tree.

So it grows up, gets blown over in a storm. It'll plunge back under the ground and pop up again with another trunk and it'll grow about as big as a kanuka or a young Wellington pohutukawa. And so as a result, you can use it for firewood, you can use it for fencepost.

But actually, it's a daisy.

[Erica]

Amazing. And it's not threatened.

[Jack]

No, incredibly tenacious.

[Erica]

It sounds like it's doing well.

[Jack]

One problem they have on the Chatham's is historically it was very, very heavily cleared. And so as a result, a lot of the forest is gone. But when you travel over there, you will see ake ake or hakapiri out in the paddocks and around the houses, and they love them over there, great trees.

[Erica]

It’s pretty cool. Can you tell us a bit about what you've told me before about the Chatham Islands and how how diverse the characteristics are over there?

[Jack]

Oh, mate. The Chatham's is just this amazing place like so much of our threatened species diversity is there. It's kind of like the Chatham's is for New Zealand. What, New Zealand is for the rest of the world. Everything's different. Everything's just kind of weird.

So not only have you got these tree sized daisies, but it's like all of the birds are just that little bit bigger. Probably the coolest or the most visible demonstration of this, though, is a bird called the parea, which we’d know as a kūkupa or a kererū, a wood pigeon. 

So the Chatham's have their own endemic one that's only on the Chatham's and almost went extinct as well. In fact, I think at one point it was down to about 45 birds left. And these things are mega, like the scientists will say they’re 20% larger than a kererū, but they look twice as big and they sit on the ground. 

So these are like the native cows. They graze the grass. And there's one corner on the road in the south of the main Chatham Island, where if you come around the corner, you have to slow down, because on the other side of the corner, quite often there'll be a flock of these big parea just sitting in the road and they’ll waddle off slowly, flap lazily over to graze on the grass.

The other interesting fact is that New Zealand has the largest stinging nettle in the world. And when I say largest, again, this is the size of a tree, like the size of an apple tree. And so probably every hunter in New Zealand will know the species from traveling around in the river valleys.

But they're massive. And they have these big jagged needles – you think about a nettle, and you know they're covered in these little bristly hairs - but this ones you can see very clearly and they stab you, just like a hypodermic needle.

You know, you've found this plant because you feel a sudden jabbing pain in your arm like someone stabbed you and for two or three days you'll be numb and itchy. From a hunters perspective, these are horrible trees because you're walking around, you don't want to stumble in and get stuck in a grove of them. They have killed people in the past. People have had allergic reactions and heart attacks from being really severely stung. But then what's cool about them is these are also where our native admiral butterflies live and where they breed and lay their eggs and what they feed on. So again, this fierce species, it's latin name, urtica ferox, the ferocious nettle. But then inside it, some of their most fragile and beautiful species.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica segue 4 - Hana Harris]

Our next guest works with another beautiful species, the magnificent kauri. Hana Harris hails from the stunning Northland region. In episode 22 she shares kōrero about her connection to native species and ecosystems through her whakapapa and her role as kaitiaki kauri. Here she is, talking about how we can help protect kauri from the notorious pathogen threatening our forests.

Hana extract

[Erica]

So Hana just listening to you, it makes me so frustrated that we've treated kauri so badly.

[Hana]

Yeah I guess I'm kind of the same I feel a bit frustrated. But I'm never hopeless. I've always got hope that things will get better or you know that people are going to be starting to get more aware or that the forest is always going to be there in some capacity.

You know we've put kauri through a lot, but you know it's actually these whole forests that have been put through [a lot]. Plowed, logging roads chucked through … and it wasn't just kauri that was being logged, it was, you know, rimu and totara, all these other trees that were getting logged, but imagine a forest without kauri. I just I couldn't, I couldn't imagine that.

And I guess kauri, in order for kauri to survive, we need to look after the forest as a whole because they all hold each other up. You know, underneath all the roots that you know, they’re connected.

And so I guess the forests as a whole we need to look after and I guess, yes we need to look after kauri and we need to stop the spread of kauri dieback, but we also need to think about the forest as a whole and you know talking about pigs and possums and goats and rats and cats and all that. Um but yeah … I guess to save one species, you have to think about the whole forest.

[Erica]

So what do people need to remember if they're going into the forest in the north?

[Hana]

I guess that key message: arrive clean leave clean. That's the main one. Stick to the tracks, stick to open tracks. You know these tracks have been upgraded for a reason.

Don't go off the track as tempting as it is to go and hug the kauri tree, if you can't reach it from the track just don't go near it. Clean your gear, especially if you're going from forest to forest and spread the message, not the disease.

[Erica]

Oh I like that one.

[Hana]

That's a good one aye, it's a good one.

[Erica]

 Is it yours, is it real?

[Hana]

I don't I don't know… did I hear that from someone? Maybe yeah.

[Erica]

We should make it real. And what's 1 thing that you wish everyone listening would tell their friends?

[Hana]

I would just say that you know there’s this disease called kauri dieback and it attacks kauri trees and it's really simple to clean your gear and make sure that you clean them before you go into any kauri lands or any kauri forests.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica segue 5 - Doddy]

Some great advice there from Hana if you happen to be out exploring our amazing kauri forests this summer.

Next, we’ve got ranger Chris Dodd (Doddy, as we all affectionately call him) on what it’s like to track and monitor rare kiwi in Aotearoa New Zealand.

Doddy joined us for episode 24, but also features in the Fiordland Kiwi Diaries mini-series on the DOC YouTube channel, which you should definitely check out if you haven’t already.

I asked him to give our listeners a taste of what being up close with a tokoeka is really like…

Doddy extract

[Doddy]

I think the first thing that always strikes me when I've got one in hand is the legs. They really do look like dinosaur legs, they're really scaly, they're huge, big claws on the end of their toes as well.

And the first thing I've really noticed with the tokoeka compared with the northern birds is they've got so much down, so they actually feel really soft and [have] so much feather. They obviously need it down here with the cold weather. … Just how fluffy they are … still surprises me. And as you go up here, again, they are quite big birds down here.

The females will be up to about 2.8-3 kgs. So they're big birds, they've got big, long bills, a good 120 mm or so. So just. Yeah. They just look like nothing else. No other bird that's around really.

[Erica]

That is so cool. And does their size make them less speedy? Are they clumsy?

[Doddy]

Um, a little bit of both. They can move with incredible speed when they want to. But they are also incredibly clumsy, especially the chicks. I've seen a couple of nests– took a couple of nest recordings this year where they‘ve just, the chicks have just been pottering around in front of the nest camera and then suddenly they just trip up and fall over and roll downhill and they've gone.

I've even seen an adult bird just kind of look up into the air and fall on its back and roll over and then quickly get up and run away. So yeah, they are very clumsy birds.

[Erica]

Oh, my gosh. And are the feathers– you say they are so many feathers– are they given to iwi, those feathers?

[Doddy]

Yeah. Yeah they certainly are. We keep hold of them here at the DOC office for them if they’re ever requested.

[Erica]

And what does a tokoeka– what does it smell like? You know they say kākāpō are like honey and kind of tree-ish. What's a tokoeka like?

[Doddy]

I’m going to use the easy answer and say they smell quite musty, which is every bird kind of you end up saying smells quite musty, but it's a really strong smell.

Their poo has quite a strong a smell of ammonia. Really strong. So once you've got your nose in [ie: once you’re familiar with the scent], you can kind of pick them up, even if you're just walking along the track.

And if there's been one go past in the past 10 minutes, quarter of an hour, you really get a waft. You kind of see why they're so prone to being caught by dogs or stoats, ferrets. If they smell that much, if I can smell them that easily, then a dog's going to pick them up from the miles away.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica segue 6 - Andrew]

DOC rangers have an above average amount of poo stories. Which brings me to our next guest Andrew Legault, who has the unfortunate moniker of the office ‘cat scat guy’— not a title he ever sought out.

Andrew works with Aotearoa’s rarest parakeet, the kākāriki karaka, or orange-fronted parakeet.

He joined us for episode 15, talking about his work to monitor and track this species, control predators in critical areas, and boost numbers with captive breeding. Here he is, telling us about his weirdest day at work…

Andrew extract

[Erica]

So you get to do things like tree climbing, bird banding, all these things that look like the best day at work. What's your weirdest day at work been?

[Andrew]

Yeah, I can't think of a specific day that I'd consider particularly weird, but occasionally we do have the field teams that have come in and bring little packages back to me. Sometimes these involve things like dead birds or rotten eggs or cat scat.

So essentially dealing with that is a little bit weird, I suppose, and it's probably my own fault because, you know, I was sort of requesting some of these things, but having sort of a pile of cat scat by my desk isn't that great in the office.

[Erica]

I just want to see the email we get. “Does anyone have some cat scat, desperately looking for?”

[Andrew]

Yeah, I mean, I was I was trying to get people interested in actually looking at the cat scat, because I think we can actually figure out some really interesting patterns of cat distribution and possibly looking at genetics. If you've got cats in different areas, you can work out whether it's the same one or not.

And you can also actually work out what cats are eating at various times of the year. So unfortunately, no, I didn't come across any takers.

[Erica]

That shocked me.

[Andrew]

Yeah. But yeah, it would have been great to actually get that study underway, because the sad thing is, we've had scat come in where it's apparent that orange fronted parakeets have been part of that cat's diet.

[Erica]

No…

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Erica]

What's been your most memorable moment in your line of work?

[Andrew]

I think in this job, I get to do quite a lot of interesting things. I've got memories of flying over a Fiordland, seeing the landscape there with waterfalls and, you know, wild forests and hidden valleys. And but also, you know, tree climbing is a great experience.

You're up in the canopy and you can sort of just look out over these valleys. And it's pretty amazing to be able to do that as part of your work.

[Erica]

Yeah

[Andrew]

But I guess if I think back to sort of when I first started a pretty good memory of the first nest that I found, and that was actually during the first week when I started with DOC. So it was pretty amazing to be able to locate a nest of critically endangered species. And during that year, actually, I think we'd only found two up to that point.

And yes, I remember sort of trying to track this bird back to a nest and essentially it just flew into a tree and disappeared. And I wasn't actually sure what was going on, but I was patient with it and had to actually come back the next day and track it down again.

And sure enough, I noticed that there was a bird flying in and it went straight into a hollow. And that nest was actually a pretty important find because that pair went on to have a second nest, which was something that we harvested or collected the eggs from.

And it was the very last clutch that came out of the Hawdon. So it was actually pretty important that we found that and we were able to get those genetics out before they disappeared.

[Erica]

And you found that in your first week.

[Andrew]

Yeah

[Erica]

That's amazing.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it was pretty cool feeling.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica segue 7 - Aroha]

Next up we have Aroha Gilling, an academic specialising in Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and an experienced Treaty Ranger. She’s passionate about education and her episode contains a wealth of expertise about nature and being a good Treaty Partner.

Aroha talks about how our conservation past intersects with both our present and our future, and how our treaty commitments need to be at the heart of this.

She also happens to be a superfan of all creatures great and small in the Rangitahi Molesworth Recreation Reserve. It’s her happy place. Here’s what she had to say about it…

Aroha extract

[Aroha]

Yes, it is a place I'm incredibly fond of. My – one of my colleagues in Nelson, after I first went there, looked at me and said “Oh look, you're falling in love.” And he was absolutely right. I have most definitely fallen in love with Rangitahi Molesworth. Actually a favourite memory was a Christmas time memory from this year.

And it's just one of those – once again, it's one of those moments of wonder. I was just driving back from doing something up at Sedgemere, which is one part of the reserve, and we came across these three men halfway up a scree slope and they had a camera and I thought, oh, I bet that's interesting. Let’s stop and find out.

So we pulled up and wound the window down and called one over, he looked slightly panicked. And I was like “you look like you're doing something interesting there. What's going on?” And what they were doing was that they were photographing something called a pen wiper. And a pen wiper is this amazing, fleshy kind of – I think they call it a fleshy herb.

It looks like it should be part of the succulent family, but it's not really. It's one of those incredible plants that you only get to see every two to three years. It lives on scree slopes. And the botanists, I think, call it a transient plant because it's not always in the same place. They take quite a long time to mature, which could be the reason you only see them every two or three years.

And they have a really distinctive, highly fragrant flower. But the best bit is why they're called a pen wiper. So they were named after the strange contraptions that Victorian England made to wipe their quill pens on, which was essentially a bunch of rags tied around a stick. So if you can imagine a big bunch of rags wound around a stick, then you've got the basic shape of a pen wiper.

[Erica]

One of my favourite conservation questions to ask is what is a species that you really love.

[Aroha]

Oh one species, I couldn't possibly pick one [Erica]! Well let's see. Actually my story about the species that I really care about or two of them anyway starts back at Onetahua marae in Golden Bay. So there's the whare there Te Ao Marama, the house was – the decoration of it was overseen by Robyn Slow who is a wonderful local artist and part of the marae whanau. And some of the images that he depicted there really got me curious.

So one of the images that occurs in some of the panels are something known as the Clifton Spiders. Now basically it's an albino spider that's blind and the size of a dinner plate. I've always wanted to see one. I really have. I've spent a lot of time clambering around looking for them, and I've only ever seen their spider webs.

So they have to go on my list. And another one that I saw for the first time illustrated on the walls of Te Ao Marama was the Powelliphanta snail. Now I have actually seen them, and I just think in they’re most beautiful things with those burnished brown shells. And I have to admit that I quite like the notion that they're carnivorous and that they eat worms by sucking them up a bit like we eat pasta.

Of course I've got a bird on my list as well.

[Erica]

Go on.

[Aroha]

It’s the tarapirohe or the black-fronted tern. And I got to know them on Rangitahi Molesworth, or the Molesworth Recreation Reserve. And I think what appeals to me most about them is – it's actually the way they look, it's a very shallow reason. But they've got these little black skullcaps that remind me of World War One flying cats and so that’s how I use – that's the kind of marker I use to identify them.

So they’re the one bird that I'm absolutely, definitely sure I've got right. So I look for the little grey feathers and the little black skullcap.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica segue 8 - Laura]

Next up, marine biologist Laura Boren dives into her favourite topic, seals, and shares some on-the-job stories about this mischievous species.

Laura was on the front lines saving marine species in the wake of the Rena oil spill, she has recently been working to develop pup shelters, and she’s extremely passionate about responsible dog ownership in areas with marine wildlife. Here she is in episode 23 when we asked her to give us her best seal fact.

Laura extract

[Laura]

With fur seals and sea lions as well, they've got a really interesting lactation and gestation period. So when a female comes ashore and gives birth, she has her pup and about a week later she actually remates with the male holding the territory and then she'll start to alternate between going to sea to feed and coming back onshore to nurse her pup.

The interesting thing is that the egg doesn't implant straight away. It stays in stasis and then about three months later it will actually implant and her new fetus will start developing. So their gestation period is similar to humans at nine months, even though she's re-mated a week after, or a week to ten days after giving birth to the last pup.

But what makes it really amazing is the fact that as she's going through this and because the lactation length is approximately ten months that means that for most of that year she's eating for three. She's having to eat to keep herself fit enough. And also to feed her pup on shore and her growing fetus. So they're pretty impressive females.

[Erica]

Wow. And she kind of almost hit pause on her pregnancy. That is amazing.

[Laura]

And that also is why, you know, the energy involved in lactation is so intense. That's why that it's really rare that you'll see a female letting another pup suckle. This is a difference between fur seals and sea lions. Sea lions will let other pups suckle, but a fur seal? Nope. They will definitely chase away a pup that is not theirs.

Pups will definitely try it on. It's what we call milk stealing. And if they're— if a pup’s mother is out at sea feeding, you might see them wandering through the colony trying to look for a sleeping female that they can sneak up and steal some milk from. And sometimes they're successful. But if they wake that female up, they're going to get chased away.

[Erica]

That is brilliant.

[Laura]

I always recommend if you're watching, you know, we have lots of fur seal breeding colonies that have really good lookouts and you can just stand from up above and watch them. And if you watch for some of these behaviours and just see what a pup is doing, going through the colony, you can see some pretty interesting stuff.

[Erica]

And now I know what to look for as well. So I’ll be like, I know he's being chased away, milk stealer! Sneaky.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica segue 9 - Michelle]

This next clip is for all the bird nerds out there. No shame in being bird nerds, we are too.

Ecologist Michelle Bradshaw has the kind of work stories that’ll make you green with envy.

Michelle is in charge of the National Banding Scheme in Aotearoa and brings hands-on banding experience from bird colonies all around the world.

In episode 21 she discusses what we can learn from the data we get from banded birds and shares some cautionary tales about on the fly identification.

Here she is talking about what we’ve learnt from banding the bar-tailed godwit, or kuaka.

Michelle extract

[Michelle]

So a lot of what we know now about birds were actually first figured out through bird banding so the bar-tailed godwit, or kuaka, they don't like winters, so they spend the summer here in New Zealand. And then when winter approaches they fly via China to Alaska and they go and breed there in the Northern Hemisphere summer, and then after breeding they fly 11,000 kilometres nonstop, directly back to New Zealand.

They can't land on water, they can't sleep while flying. Eight days nonstop, 11,000 kilometres. When they get here, they're promptly fall asleep. And this was first worked out by researchers in Alaska watching banded birds depart. And this was before the days of, you know, WhatsApp, etc. But they probably would have sent a message to the researchers here in New Zealand saying this bird has just left now.

And then they start the countdown. And then you have the researchers in New Zealand watching when they arrive here and they can see that exact bird. There was a particular Godwit, with a flag E7, that had done some amazing trips. And when they arrive here, then they can tell their counterparts in Alaska Yes, yes, this bird has arrived. And they still do that, both the birds as well as the bird watchers.

[Erica]

That amazing. How do they stay alive during that trip? So they can't land on water. Do they just – they obviously eat enough and then go on their way?

[Michelle]

Yeah, they need to fatten up prior to the long migration and they even take into account the weather, the atmospheric conditions, the wind directions, etc. We now have birds with satellite transmitters on and we can look a lot more finely at their decisions and how they're impacted by all of these massive weather events or deciding to delay their departures. There's some birds that they have found depart New Zealand from exactly the same spot on the same day each year.

Uncanny, like clockwork. And we call them bird brains. It is unbelievable. But the first knowledge of this was actually thanks to bird banding that we knew that they actually fly directly, they don't stop anywhere. And it's just – it's amazing what we can learn about these birds.

[Erica]

That is amazing! How do you decide which birds you're going to band.

[Michelle]

You know, they line up and they volunteer. They say “band me, band me!”. No not actually. As I said, there has to be a purpose and very good reason before you mark a bird. That bird is going to wear that band forever. So you need to find out what data, what data do you need to answer the questions you're trying to answer and how many birds actually need to be marked in order to do that.

And so in order to obtain enough information, for instance, on longevity, you need to actually mark an inordinate number of birds in order to get enough data over time. And it might be hard to predict beforehand whether ten birds are enough or 50. Or maybe you need to mark 50,000 birds to get the data you want. The main thing is to ensure that the purpose of marking is such that that bird is not wearing that mark for no purpose.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica segue 10 - Brent]

Next up we’ve got an oldie but a goodie. Back in 2021 Brent Beaven told us everything we need to know about Predator Free 2050 – in fact, he told us so much, we needed two episodes to cover it all.

Brent is an expert on predator control and has decades of hands-on field experience. He's herded sea lions, been hounded by kiwi, and caught mohua in his socks… here he is in episode 13, explaining exactly how that situation panned out…

Brent extract

[Brent]

I was out on Breaksea Island, catching mohua for transfer to Whenua Hou a few years ago, which was quite a cool job. Breaksea was one of the-- it was the first island they made predator free in New Zealand, the first big island. They did Maria Island, which is a small one.

But this was the first structured, baited, ground-baited approach to doing it. And it's really steep. It's quite an amazing island in Fiordland. And the wildlife on it is phenomenal.

So we can go in and actually catch some of the birds, and take them off to repopulate other spots there's so many. So I was catching mohua-- or yellowhead-- on the island. And we would struggle for days. And I was on top of the island.

And we'd only had 15 birds. And the helicopter was coming. And you normally want 30 to 50 to try to start a population. And we-- I was on the top of the island. And we're 15 minutes to go till we called it quits and the helicopter arrived.

I caught 30 mohua in one go. So they're in the net and they're everywhere. The only problem was, I didn't expect that. And there was only me. And I didn't have enough catch bags.

So I filled up all my catch bags. So we put the birds into little bags that protect them. And that way, we can transport them and carry them down and put them in a box to move them to another island.

So I took my socks off. And I stuffed some mohua in my socks. And I tied my sleeves up on my raincoat and put mohua in the raincoat. And every-- off every little pocket and everything I could do, I had filled with mohua.

And then, I had to line them in my pack and tie them around the pack and hold them close. But you can't hold 30 catch bags by yourself. So I had everything lined up. And then, I-- and the radio wasn't working, because the island is so steep you couldn't connect across it.

So the helicopter had come in by this point. And they were all down there. And I'm desperately stuffing all these birds in bags and folding them up--

[Erica]

Could they not help?

[Brent]

--shooing other birds away. Go away. And I got them all stuffed in. And then, I had to go down. It's a very steep track. It's like 45 degrees. So I have these 30 birds in pockets and bags and socks.

[Erica]

Don't fall over.

[Brent]

And I got down the bottom, just got the radio connection time to make them hold. And they held the chopper. We got them all out, banded them, put them in the boxes.

And you know, it was about 30, 40 minutes later than anticipated. But then, we got them all away. And we had a good population.

[Erica]

And they successfully started a new population?

[Brent]

We successfully started a new population on Whenua Hou. So Whenua Hou or Codfish Islands, where all the kakapo are? Another site where-- when you get rid of predators, you can have kakapo and more wildlife and things like that.

[Erica]

Harder to stuff in your jacket.

[Brent]

They are a bit harder to stuff in your jacket, but I'd give it a go.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica segue 11 - Tim]

And now, you may know him as the star of the Fiordland Kiwi Diaries, we had one Tim Raemaekers on the show. Tim is a highly experience conservationist who for many years has been charged with monitoring southern Fiordland tokoeka kiwi in Shy Lake Fiordland.

He monitored kiwi in that area when there wasn’t any predator control, and then continued monitoring after aerial predator control to determine the effects.

(You really should watch the Fiordland Kiwi Diaries miniseries on our YouTube if you haven’t already)

In addition, Tim has also seen species like robin/toutouwai, kākāpō and kiwi get up to some truly incredible things. Listen for yourself.

Tim Extract

[Tim]

Yeah, I think my– well, lots of times, actually, there’s lots of times that I've been sitting on a mountain top having a cup of tea and looking around and thinking, wow, I can't believe that I get to do this. This is wonderful. And I think one time that really stood out to me was when I was – I was volunteering, actually.

I had had my first paid contract with DOC at that point. But I did a couple of weeks volunteering with the kākāpō recovery program on Whenua Hou, down off Rakiura. And my job was to hang out near a kākāpō nest at night and basically make sure that everything sort of went to plan and that the chick was staying healthy and getting fed as it should.

And I was– I had to go down to the nest when the mother was away, so that I wouldn't be disturbing her. But at one point, as I was sort of retreating, she kind of beat me to the punch and came back a little bit. And so I just sort of stood back and stood still and got my first ever view of a kākāpō, which was just a pretty priceless moment.

You know, this incredibly kind of vivid green and just so different and, you know, just very quiet, just creeping along. It was a very kind of what felt like a very intimate moment to me. And that was just like, oh, I'm living the dream here. You know, that's kind of where I wanted to be and here I am doing it, wow.

[Erica]

Wow. And such a humbling moment. I imagine, just going that's the thing we're saving. That's pretty cool.  Any particular memorable moments in the field other than that, perhaps to do with kiwi?

[Tim]

Yeah there’s a couple that stick out. There was one situation that I had at Shy Lake which was quite unexpected and a little bit strange where I was tracking this chick– our job there is to find out what happens to chicks. Do they survive? Do they not? So I got a little radio transmitter on. And I was tracking this chick.

And I found it in a place that I didn't really expect to find it, outside of its home territory. But as I was tracking it, I was getting a bit of interference on the little receiver that we use. And I thought, I think there's another bird around here somewhere. And when I actually found it, I was pleased to see that it was safe and sound in a little hole under a log.

But in there, there were some adults, but they weren't the parents of this kiwi. And it's actually quite a sad story. So these adults had had a chick of their own, that had been killed by a stoat and this little chick had obviously gone wandering off and sort of been adopted/kidnapped by these adults who obviously had a real strong drive to be parenting something and had found this thing and started parenting it.

So it was a situation that was probably, I would speculate, a bit unnatural, but just something I just never considered might happen with Kiwi, you know, it's something that can happen with other species but kiwi are really territorial and just little insights into the tiny little things that go on in their worlds that you wouldn’t normally know about.

[Erica]

Oh, that's pretty special. So in the course of your conservation career, there must have been a million different great places that you have worked in. What's the coolest place you've worked in and can you tell me about why?

[Tim]

Yeah, sure. There's a lot of parts of Fiordland which I just absolutely love and            the scenery is incredible. And Shy Lake’s probably top of that tree. But for really, the coolest place that I feel like I've worked in would be several pest free islands that I             worked on with the Kākāpō program, Whenua Hou, Anchor Island and a couple of    visits up to Hauturu in the Hauraki Gulf.

And all of those places are just absolutely buzzing with life. They're all long term pest free islands and there's birds everywhere and there's other life, there’s sea life, and they're just so vibrant. And I also, you know, I lived there.

We were there for weeks at a time, and then we'd have two weeks off. And that was kind of my home for a few years. And you just really get to know that island and that environment and connect with it and sort of grow with it a little bit.

But for me, those pest free islands, it's something that I wish every New Zealander could experience because it's a vision of what we're trying to achieve, what we once had everywhere across Aotearoa and what it could be like again.

And yeah, I think it's just, you know, people come to those islands and I've lost count of the number of people that I've been with on those islands who've really considered it a landmark experience in their life to get to go there and experience that.

And yeah, that's what we're working towards.

[Bell]

[Music]

[Erica outro]

Thanks for joining us on this whirlwind tour of past episodes of the DOC Sounds of Science podcast.

This show is hosted by me, Erica Wilkinson, and edited and teched by Lucy Holyoake. This cut was put together by Laura Honey, and we’re produced and directed by Jayne Ramage.

The DOC "Sounds a Science" podcast is available wherever you get your podcasts, so subscribe now, never miss an episode.

Have a great summer. Kia ora.

[Music plays out]

00;00;05;13 - 00;00;38;24

ERICA:

Kia ora! I'm Erica Wilkinson and this is the DOC Sounds of Science podcast.

Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science.

Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s technical experts, scientists, rangers and the experts in between.

Today on the show, we have Hollei Gabrielsen, technical advisor at the Department of Conservation, who specialises in volcanology.

00;00;39;06 - 00;00;46;23

ERICA:

Hollei provides advice on volcanic matters, unrest, risk and eruptions. Kia ora Hollei, would you like to introduce yourself?

00;00;46;23 - 00;01;12;29

HOLLEI:

Ko Tongariro te maunga, ko Taupōnuiatia te moana, ko Ngāti Tūwharetoa te iwi, ko te Heuheu te tangata.

Kia ora Erica, kia ora everyone who's listening to this today. My name's Hollei, I hail from Ngāti Tūwharetoa.

00;01;13;24 - 00;01;27;15

ERICA:

Kia ora Hollei, haere mai. Welcome to the show. As you know, ko Erica tēnei, kei Te Papa Atawhai ahau e mahi ana.

So we have to start here with a simple question that's actually a sneaky, hard question in disguise. What is a volcano?

00;01;28;08 - 00;01;36;10

HOLLEI:

So a volcano is we magma erupts at the surface in its most basic form and forms a volcano.

00;01;36;23 - 00;01;39;02

ERICA:

So can you tell us about the three types of volcano?

00;01;39;09 - 00;02;03;13

HOLLEI:

Yes, I can. So I'll start with the volcanoes in Tongariro National Park. So those volcanoes are shield volcanoes or strato-volcanoes, and they are formed over many hundreds of thousands of years. And they are formed from volcanic deposits such as ash and lava. And they're basically just layered and layered on top of each other through eruptions.

00;02;04;25 - 00;02;35;01

HOLLEI:

And then I'll fast forward to calderas because I grew up in Taupō. If people aren't aware Lake Taupō is a caldera. Calderas are formed through really infrequent but violent eruptions where the majority of the magma chamber that sits beneath the volcano is expelled to the surface. And because there's no more body within the mountain, the mountain collapses in on itself and creates a crater that eventually fills up with water.

00;02;35;08 - 00;03;12;05

HOLLEI:

And we have a number of caldera volcanoes brought right from Lake Taupō through to Rotorua. So volcanic fields is another example of a type of volcano and more commonly known in Auckland. But there are also volcanic fields in Northland as well. And so volcanic field is just an area or location where volcanoes can be formed. And what's quite unique about a volcano field is that a volcano was formed through one eruption and then that's that for that volcano.

00;03;12;05 - 00;03;21;08

HOLLEI:

So in Auckland there might be roughly 50, approximately 50 volcanoes that have occurred in Auckland.

00;03;22;02 - 00;03;30;19

Erica

So if I live in Tāmaki Makaurau, could I wake up one morning and suddenly see that there’s a volcano next to me that wasn’t there yesterday?

00;03;31;02 - 00;03;49;06

Hollei

Yeah I think that’s a very good question and a very real question that possibly many Aucklanders would be asking. It’s a very low probability for an eruption to occur in Auckland. But that’s not to say that at some point in the future whether that’s within our lifetime or hundreds of years into the future.

00;03;50;01 - 00;03;57;15

ERICA:

Now I know your whakapapa is really central to your work. Can you tell us about your role at Te Papa Atawhai, the Department of Conservation?

00;03;57;15 - 00;04;09;07

HOLLEI:

My main role at Te Papa Atawhai to provide technical advice to decision makers on all things pertaining to our volcanoes, particularly in Tongariro National Park.

00;04;10;06 - 00;04;14;06

ERICA:

Now Tongariro is an important place for you and your work. Can you tell us about that?

00;04;14;22 - 00;04;38;18

HOLLEI:

Yes, I guess for us as Māori, we link directly to a mountain. And so for me, as someone from Ngāti Tuwharetoa – the first line I utter in my pepeha is ko Tongariro te maunga. And so that directly centers me in a geographical location and it tells you that I am linked to whakapapa, to my mountain.

00;04;39;02 - 00;05;16;26

HOLLEI:

And so it's really cool to have a role with the department that actively works alongside and intimately with my Maunga.

I guess for me as a wāhine Māori, that centres me as a person in our environment. So the creation story that we link to really shows the origins of where people fit into the world. And for me, because I whakapapa directly to the volcanoes in the Central North Island, it really helps to centre me as a person and my role with Te Papa Atawhai [DOC].

00;05;17;07 - 00;05;34;06

ERICA:

I don't know if you know, but Lonely Planet have a world’s coolest jobs book and alongside snake venom collector and astronaut, it's volcanologist. So please tell me what does a volcanologist do? Can you tell me about your average day and the purpose of your work?

00;05;34;12 - 00;06;07;13

HOLLEI:

I can tell you what the average volcanologist whose name is Hollei does every day? And I guess because the role that I have with Te Papa Atawhai is advisory. So really it's around recommending what are some appropriate decisions relating to visitors accessing the volcanoes and sites within Tongariro National Park. So what I would typically do on a day and I go – this really will speak to the geek inside--

00;06;07;13 - 00;06;38;13

HOLLEI:

So a lot of it is reviewing, understanding, researching the evolution of our mountain. So I don't do the work like that, I will utilise the work that researchers from universities have done to inform the decisions that I will be advocating for our decision makers. So that's kind of one part, another part that I like to do quite regularly is also to incorporate the te ao Māori side of who Hollei is.

00;06;38;13 - 00;07;07;01

HOLLEI:

And so and I utilise those kind of – they're not frameworks, but they are pou in my whare. So that I know who I am, I know what research I need to lean on. I know how to be Māori in a science kind of world, which is sometimes not as easy to be your full self. And so I utilise those kinds of resources to support me to do my work.

00;07;07;07 - 00;07;10;14

ERICA:

That's awesome. Are you the only volcanologist at DOC?

00;07;10;17 - 00;07;12;12

HOLLEI:

I am. Lonely, isn’t it.

00;07;13;11 - 00;07;24;06

ERICA:

The responsibility! It’s insane. So kind of by observation, it doesn't seem like there are a lot of wāhine Māori volcanologists. Do you find that your perspective is pretty unique in the field?

00;07;24;07 - 00;07;49;04

HOLLEI:

Yeah, I think being Māori, you know that is – you bring something different to the table when you're in an environment with other scientists. I think also being a woman, who's Māori, who is a volcanologist, you know, you bring a collection of perspectives and experiences to the table that men don't have or pākehā people or people from other countries don't typically have.

00;07;49;04 - 00;08;02;29

HOLLEI:

So I think I've learned to, you know, lean on those parts of myself and use that to inform the way I approach work and approach life generally.

00;08;03;08 - 00;08;08;02

ERICA:

Do you think your perspective and understanding does really affect your approach to your work?

00;08;08;02 - 00;08;32;21

HOLLEI:

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's an important thing about working for the department. So working for Te Papa Atawhai and really leaning in to how to be, you know, how does the department be an active and very good treaty partner to iwi Māori. And so having the capabilities and the pūkenga that I have naturally through, you know, just being Māori and growing up in the environment that I did.

00;08;33;01 - 00;08;54;03

HOLLEI:

I think that in itself is very special, and it's not something that I – It's not something that I favour. Like in our conference that we held at the start of the year in Rotorua, so we didn't hold – sorry I attended – but it was a collection of international volcanologists that met in Rotorua for a week at the start of this year and I was asked to speak at the opening ceremony and, you know, that's like 800 people who know nothing – well, know nothing about te iwi Māori. I guess the majority of the attendees were from all over the world.

And so I took that opportunity to, you know, tell a story about who we are as Māori and how we connect to our natural landscape, particularly to our volcanoes, more so to articulate that you're coming to our special places. There are a group of people throughout New Zealand that tie in and link intimately to their specific volcano, or their specific mountain.

HOLLEI:

And I guess I really wanted to just make sure that people were aware of how special these places are so that when they come to our rohe [area], they come to our volcanoes, that they treat them with respect.

00;09;50;11 - 00;09;58;16

ERICA:

And at that conference, would you say that that would alter the approach for geoscientists once you once you mentioned that?

00;09;58;24 - 00;10;28;06

HOLLEI:

I think the intention is that exposing in them to a relationship that exists between a group of people and their volcanic ancestor can help shape the way that they approach for example, research. So I've observed in the past scientists who have come to Tongariro National Park as well as the surrounds that don't encompass the kind of rules and that are in place with taking samples.

00;10;28;06 - 00;10;49;18

HOLLEI:

But I've observed scientists pull out their glad bag and help themselves to the whenua. And I think even just from a Māori perspective, you're removing something from that location, you are taking that away and you are never bringing it back. And I suppose those are the things that I wanted to encourage people to just be more mindful of.

00;10;50;03 - 00;11;06;03

ERICA:

That's really important. I hope that really got across for our international visitors and geoscientists. Hollei you must have many amazing field stories. I bet you get to do a lot of pretty cool stuff. Has there been a most memorable day at work? Could you tell me about?

00;11;06;11 - 00;11;37;10

HOLLEI:

Yes, I guess the one that comes to mind is my first visit to Te Wai o Moe. Te Wai o Moe is the Crater Lake on Mount Ruapehu and myself and other colleagues were accompanying some researchers who were researching the stability of the crater rim and what was most memorable about that particular day at work was how large and scary those kinds of locations can be.

00;11;37;10 - 00;11;59;16

HOLLEI:

And I think the thing that really stuck with me is how small I felt in that environment. So, you know, you drive down State Highway 1 and you look at the mountain and it looks like a mountain, but once you're in the environment, the scale is really, really different. And I just felt like an ant, you know, walking on a rock.

00;11;59;21 - 00;12;12;18

HOLLEI:

And it was quite, you know, I didn't move far from where the helicopter dropped me off. And I sat there and I was like, Oh, you guys good? Yep, sweet, I will remain here until the helicopter comes back and picks me up.

00;12;13;05 - 00;12;19;01

ERICA:

Because in 2020 it heated and then cooled again didn't it? Does that happen often?

00;12;19;08 - 00;12;45;03

HOLLEI:

Yeah, so cooling and heating cycles are typical at Te Wai o Moe and so they happen quite often even today the temperature I think is around 16 or so degrees and it's really evident of what is happening beneath the volcano. And so the temperature Te Wai o Moe is just an indicator on what is happening beneath the mountain.

00;12;46;13 - 00;13;00;18

ERICA:

Now for my new favourite segment of the show, the questions from listeners, we had a bunch of these come in, asked on our Instagram stories. Everyone wants to know lots of things about volcanoes, so I will ask you a few. Are volcanoes mountains?

00;13;01;11 - 00;13;20;06

HOLLEI:

Yes, volcanoes are mountains. But not all mountains are volcanoes. And I think the interesting thing there is that how they are formed will determine whether or not it's a volcano.

00;13;20;06 - 00;13;24;23

ERICA:

Okay. That's a good, good structure to understand. How many volcanoes do we have?

00;13;25;10 - 00;13;44;04

HOLLEI:

Heck there's heaps of volcanoes in New Zealand, actually, but a lot of them are incredibly old. So we even have volcanoes in the South Island, but they're in the millions, the millions of years old and possibly haven’t erupted in such a long time. There are roughly eight active volcanic areas in New Zealand.

00;13;44;12 - 00;13;56;25

ERICA:

Interesting, this is from a listener “I read most of Aotearoa’s volcanic eruptions in the past hundred years have been phreatic. First, what's phreatic? And secondly, is it possible to predict an eruption?

00;13;58;01 - 00;14;20;21

HOLLEI:

Good, good question. So phreatic eruptions are really steam explosions that occur. So heat from the magma or the magma interacting with groundwater or a volcanic lake can cause these kinds of eruptions. So they're quite common at Mount Ruapehu. And the second question was?

00;14;21;04 - 00;14;22;12

ERICA:

Is it possible to predict?

00;14;22;17 - 00;14;50;27

HOLLEI:

Yeah, I think there's a difficulty there. They are really hard to predict. And volcanic eruptions generally, you can't pinpoint it's going to happen at 10 o'clock tomorrow. And so in response to the unpredictability of phreatic eruptions, for example, the Department of Conservation, in partnership with Geonet have an established eruption detection system on the mountain to, I guess, mitigate that particular eruption style.

00;14;51;09 - 00;14;54;16

ERICA:

Can you tell me about the volcanic alert level system?

00;14;55;09 - 00;15;27;12

HOLLEI:

So the volcanic alert level system is a mechanism that helps people understand the level of unrest at the volcanoes in New Zealand. So unrest is really described through three levels, starting at zero inferring that there's no volcanic unrest occurring at a mountain, at a volcano, Level one, volcanic alert level one infers that minor unrest is present at that volcano. Level two is moderate to heightened volcanic unrest.

00;15;27;23 - 00;15;51;06

HOLLEI:

And then so we're moving from unrest through to eruption. And so eruption also has three scales starting at three, which is a minor or smaller eruption. That really means the eruption hazards that occur at that volcano are kind of located around the vent. And as the eruption sizes increase, it really scales up.

00;15;51;06 - 00;16;00;22

ERICA:

Okay. And instead of just asking the expert on the podcast, how can I find out myself if there is likely to be a volcanic eruption in, say, the Banks Peninsula where I live?

00;16;01;02 - 00;16;26;19

HOLLEI:

Good question. I think the best location to go for any information about volcanoes, particularly around the monitoring side. Geonet has a website as well as an app. And so Geonet are responsible for monitoring natural hazards around the country. So their website as well as the app has, you know, a myriad of information from earthquakes, landslides through to volcanoes.

00;16;27;03 - 00;16;31;18

HOLLEI:

It's a great place to go to help grow your understanding of our country.

00;16;31;26 - 00;16;45;07

ERICA:

Fantastic. We in Canterbury use Geonet a lot. Now DOC has three visitor accessible volcanoes on public conservation land. All three are in Tongariro National Park which is your whakapapa and your expertise. Is that right?

00;16;45;14 - 00;16;46;11

HOLLEI:

It is, yes.

00;16;46;18 - 00;16;53;16

ERICA:

Now specifically talking about visitors, What should people do before they go on a walk in Tongariro National Park?

00;16;53;25 - 00;17;18;26

HOLLEI:

Being informed around the level of volcanic unrest, particularly at our volcanoes within Tongariro National Park is probably a good place to start. Other ways that you can source data. The Department of Conservation has a website that discusses volcanic risk management and that has a lot of good information on how we actively mitigate volcanic risk to the public.

00;17;19;05 - 00;17;35;26

ERICA:

So visitors can't learn if something's going to erupt from our website. But what you can find out is how to be prepared for going out into the wilderness and to know before you go, know where you're going. But there is no chance of mitigating volcanic eruptions to zero, is that right?

00;17;36;14 - 00;18;15;03

HOLLEI:

So Department of Conservation cannot mitigate volcanic risk to zero. That's correct. And so how we manage the risk that is left over per say is that we have an eruption detection system on our mountains. And so that informs us of an eruption. But aside from that, we have, I guess, processes and systems in place that allow us as the team that manages those locations, to make the appropriate decisions around whether or not sites can be accessed or not.

00;18;15;03 - 00;18;34;26

HOLLEI:

But I guess for the visitor who is visiting our locations, being informed around the current level of unrest, understanding that they are coming to visit an active volcanic landscape is probably a really good thing to know, and interestingly, not many people know that it's a volcano or that there are volcanoes in Tongariro National Park.

00;18;35;19 - 00;18;45;24

ERICA:

So if people are going out recreationally around active volcano sites, there is the possibility of having no warning around an eruption. Does that sound right?

00;18;46;04 - 00;19;04;00

HOLLEI:

Yes. So eruptions can happen at all volcanoes within Tongariro National Park with little to no warning. And I think that really articulates the power of our volcanoes and how prepared we need to be when we are accessing our tracks in Tongariro National Park.

00;19;04;14 - 00;19;09;13

ERICA:

Absolutely. So always be aware that that's the kind of ecosystem that you're around.

00;19;09;20 - 00;19;18;23

HOLLEI:

Yeah and I think just being really vigilant around, you know, we’re here walking on an active volcanic landscape, how do I keep my wits about me?

00;19;18;23 - 00;19;25;16

ERICA:

That leads me on to how do I keep my wits about me? What is the best way to protect yourself during an eruption?

00;19;25;25 - 00;20;17;15

HOLLEI:

Because eruptions can create a number of different volcanic hazards or volcanic phenomena, understanding perhaps the behaviour or style of an eruption at the particular volcano you're visiting might help inform you how to be prepared. For example, Mount Ruapehu was known for its lahar and so lahar are volcanic mudflows that flow particularly down the Whangaehu catchment which is on the northeastern side of Ruapehu. Understanding that there is a phenomena you may encounter if you're traversing in that location, knowing that if I hear the sound of boulders crashing, you know, please do not stay within the base of those riverbeds.

00;20;17;15 - 00;20;43;16

HOLLEI:

Move to higher ground, get yourself out of the valley and move to higher ground. So that's probably the best way you can be prepared if you ever encounter a lahar. For the likes of balistics, which are rocks that are thrown out of the mountain of the volcano during an eruption. The safest way to respond will be if you can find a rock to shelter behind, use your pack if you have one, and use it to cover your head, facing away from the mountain to keep yourself safe.

00;20;43;16 - 00;20;55;22

HOLLEI:

So those are kind of ways that you can help protect yourself. But what I will say is that the closer you are to any volcanic vent, the higher the consequence.

00;20;56;03 - 00;21;04;07

ERICA:

That makes sense. Now, a lahar channel, in my head that looks like, you know, in a film, there's lava coming down the mountain. Is that what that is?

00;21;04;16 - 00;21;31;21

HOLLEI:

A lahar is a volcanic mudflow. So think of it like a mixture of water, volcanic debris, rocks. And so sometimes has a consistency like concrete. And it varies, depending on how much water content it has. It's really like a large flood that has a potential to cause a lot of damage, but also has potential to carry so many large boulders right from the top of the mountain down the landscape.

00;21;32;01 - 00;21;32;22

ERICA:

Is it hot?

00;21;33;16 - 00;22;05;07

HOLLEI:

Not necessarily. And I guess it all depends, you know, how we talked about the temperature cycling at Te Wai o Moe, which I guess if we look at a typical temperature range that we experience at Ruapehu might be between 12 to 15 degrees at the lower end and 40 degrees at the higher end. But irrespective of the temperature of the lake, it's mostly cold, maybe at other volcanoes.

00;22;05;07 - 00;22;07;28

HOLLEI:

I'm not too sure if it means that they might be hot, but.

00;22;07;28 - 00;22;19;27

ERICA:

Now, as DOC's only volcanologist and with such wonderful connection to this role, you must have many career highlights. Would you mind telling us about one of them?

00;22;20;08 - 00;22;52;22

HOLLEI:

I will. I've talked about it earlier. One of the experiences that I have that while it's not particularly something that I enjoy doing, I, you know, the opening ceremony at the IAVCEI [International Association of Volcanology and Chemistry of the Earths Interior conference, and it was probably quite memorable because it provided me with an opportunity to share more about who I am and the importance of being Māori working for Te Papa Atawhai at the location that, you know, I'm so privileged to be able to work at.

00;22;52;22 - 00;23;11;29

HOLLEI:

And even though public speaking, you know, it's really something that I have to learn, I have to learn to get used to. And I think saying yes to things like that just helps me grow individually as well as represent both, you know, to Te Papa Atawhai in my people better. When I can tell the stories that I can tell.

00;23;12;11 - 00;23;31;12

ERICA:

I've heard someone say before-- the cause is bigger than your ego. So if you're stressed and nervous about something, it doesn't matter because you have to advocate for it? But it's never easy. It sounds like really bucket list stuff. Segueing into maybe not so bucket list stuff. What has been your strangest day at work?

00;23;31;25 - 00;23;54;29

HOLLEI:

I've had some strange days, but one of the – I wouldn't call it strange.It would just be another experience that helped me to grow. And so when I say helped me to grow, it means that it was a little bit on the scary side of life. So previously when I started with the department, I was in secondment and I used to follow Harry Keys around.

00;23;54;29 - 00;24;16;28

HOLLEI:

And so for the listeners that know Harry Keys, he’s a specialist on volcanoes and on ice, and so we had the opportunity, myself and my colleague Theo had the opportunity to head up on Ruapehu to the summit plateau and explore some of the ice caves up there. Again, it's like my memorable experience up at Te Wai o Moe, and I think it was just really – you know, I was sat there and I was like oh I'm really scared. I don't know ice, I don’t know the mountains, I'm not a mountain climber. But it was really cool to be with someone who knew how to do this, who led the way, who allowed me time to be comfortable. And, you know, we got to explore the glacier on the top of the mountain and it was really, really cool and scary.

00;24;39;19 - 00;24;42;11

HOLLEI:

And then we walked down and that was hard.

00;24;42;11 - 00;24;49;27

ERICA:

Oh, that does sound hard. Oh, wow. That sounds quite scary, especially if you don't know the terrain, know the ice.

00;24;50;00 - 00;24;58;17

HOLLEI:

Oh it’s just new experience, I think, and being okay with being uncomfortable, but also having confidence that you're with people that know what they're doing.

00;24;59;07 - 00;25;11;12

ERICA:

Yeah. And trusting in the science. Okay, We've heard about bat nipples, we've heard about mucus being shot as a defence mechanism… what is your favourite weird and wonderful nature fact.

00;25;11;12 - 00;25;35;29

HOLLEI:

So I guess when you're a child and you explore what volcanoes are, you typically draw your mountain Mt. Ngāuruhoe and you draw lava, you know, lava flowing down the side of the mountain. And that's our understanding of what volcanoes are and how eruptions occur. So I was talking to one of my friends a while ago when I was doing my master's around volcanic phenomena.

00;25;36;20 - 00;26;05;18

HOLLEI:

And I remember her saying, oh my gosh, is there lava? Lava everywhere? And so we've really learned that, you know phreatic eruptions don't necessarily include or expel lava from the mountain. But there are, you know, there are steam explosions. So those are interesting facts for me to help people understand that not all volcanic eruptions are your typical from a beautiful, picturesque mountain where lava just flows down, you know, down the sides of the mountain.

00;26;05;26 - 00;26;21;08

HOLLEI:

So I think helping people understand that eruptions and volcanoes are actually really complex. They have their own typical behaviours. And once you learn about them, you know, you get to know them a little bit more. You get to know their likes and dislikes.

00;26;21;08 - 00;26;25;12

ERICA:

And that it's not just the stereotype lava coming down a mountain.

00;26;25;13 - 00;26;31;24

HOLLEI:

I don't know if that's an interesting fact, but it's interesting that, you know, people's observations of volcanoes are just that aye.

00;26;31;26 - 00;26;38;12

ERICA:

Yeah, and as soon as you scratch the surface, you start learning about them that that's not all it is. I would say that is a holy crap fact.

00;26;38;12 - 00;26;53;26

HOLLEI:

There’s heaps aye, like Volcanoes are weird, you know. Do you know about lahar? I mean, we've learned about what the lahars are and the interesting thing about lahar specifically at Mount Ruapehu is that they don't always occur with an eruption.

00;26;54;17 - 00;26;58;07

ERICA:

Right. I was looking into that and it was like five years later or something.

00;26;58;13 - 00;27;26;13

HOLLEI:

So the Tangiwai disaster is an example of the lahar occurring without an eruption. And so for that specific event, the eruption of 1945, much like the eruptions of 95, 96, really just deposited volcanic material on the crater rim and created like a dam, a dam of water that, you know, eventually was released later on down the track.

00;27;27;00 - 00;27;37;28

ERICA:

So with that, the the eruptions done, it's, you know, five years ago or whatever. And then the Tangiwai disaster was that that train going along and the lahar suddenly exploded. That's what happened, is it?

00;27;38;10 - 00;27;44;16

HOLLEI:

Exploded is probably not the right word. But the dam broke and the water flowed down the mountain.

00;27;45;03 - 00;27;52;29

ERICA:

So is there any way that that we have learned since those days to predict a post eruption lahar?

00;27;53;15 - 00;28;23;12

HOLLEI:

Absolutely. The event of the Tangiwai disaster informed our response to the lahar that occurred on the 18th of March 2007. And so, you know, I think one of the key things about our role, well, the role that I hold and our predecessors is really understanding the history and the lessons there so that they can inform how we respond to those kinds of events in the future, because it will happen again.

00;28;24;08 - 00;28;26;12

HOLLEI:

There are lots of lessons to be learned with eruptions.

00;28;27;01 - 00;28;31;16

ERICA:

Definitely. What's something about volcanoes that blew your mind when you learned it?

00;28;31;20 - 00;29;02;10

HOLLEI:

So when I was ten and living in Taupō, I learned about the mana and the power of a volcano through our koroua [grandfather] our koro [shortened version of koroua] Ruapehu erupting and being at school, Taupō primary school and you know, seeing the sky black, you know, those are things that not many people around New Zealand probably experience if you weren’t alive or living in Taupō or other locations during that time.

HOLLEI:

You know that's a pretty cool thing to be able to witness.

00;29;02;13 - 00;29;07;19

ERICA:

Yeah and probably quite formative for you as well. Did that make you go into this career path?

00;29;07;19 - 00;29;27;20

HOLLEI:

Yeah. Interesting. So I have a story that I say all the time. So my mum is someone who keeps everything. So all our books and all our, you know, all our pictures that we drew as kids and I have a, I have a volcano picture, a picture that I drew when I was 10, 11, 12.

00;29;27;20 - 00;29;58;18

HOLLEI:

And I use it in some of my presentations to articulate, you know, this event, you know, these series of eruptions that occurred at that time helped me, I guess, subconsciously to love science, love learning about volcanic eruptions, love understanding volcanoes, and I remember writing something like I want to be a volcanologist when I grow up. And so those are the little cool gems that exist in, I guess, my upbringing and my mum's real cool because she keeps up like that.

00;29;58;18 - 00;30;07;27

HOLLEI:

And then when I came over to Te Papa Atawhai, she reminded me that that's something that I had actually wanted to be when I was younger.

00;30;08;10 - 00;30;10;29

ERICA:

Oh good on you, mum. Thanks for saving it.

00;30;11;05 - 00;30;11;26

HOLLEI:

Yeah, she's cool.

00;30;12;14 - 00;30;21;07

ERICA:

Hollei what's your public service announcement or kind of call-to-action reminder for the public as weather starts to maybe warm up and more people are getting out into nature?

00;30;21;16 - 00;30;42;27

HOLLEI:

I think preparation is key. Making sure first and foremost you are dressed appropriately for the track or hike you're accessing, making sure you have enough food and water, sunscreen and that you have everything on you in the event of weather turning particularly, and having fun.

00;30;43;12 - 00;31;05;14

ERICA:

Ah Hollei I could talk to you all day, but I am not allowed to because you need to go and give your expertise around volcanic risk for Aotearoa. So unfortunately, we have to end this episode. But what an episode, what amazing insight you have given. Thank you so much for taking your time. I feel like we've learned so much about volcanic history and the work being done now.

00;31;05;14 - 00;31;13;29

ERICA:

I can probably look at the Banks Peninsular and tell you that it's two extinct volcanoes, not a caldera like I thought it was this morning. Thank you so much for being here with us.

00;31;14;13 - 00;31;19;19

HOLLEI:

No problem at all. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Erica.

00;31;19;19 - 00;31;53;06

Erica

Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Erika Wilkinson, and this has been the Sounds of Science podcast. The show is available wherever you get your podcasts or you can stream it off our website, www.doc.govt.nz/podcast. This show is produced by Jayne Ramage with editing by Lucy Holyoake. If you enjoyed this episode, show us some love with a five-star rating.

00;00;04;04 - 00;00;38;01 

Erica 

Kia ora! I'm Erica Wilkinson and this is the DOC Sounds of Science podcast. 

Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science. 

Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s technical experts, scientists, rangers and the experts in between. 

Kia ora koutou katoa, hello to you all. I'm very excited to welcome to the show, freshwater expert Nixie Boddy, kia ora Nixie.   

00;00;38;12 - 00;00;39;08  

Nixie 

Kia ora Erica. 

00;00;39;20 - 00;01;00;27  

Erica 

Nixie is passionate about all things freshwater, big and small, and sometimes the things you expect to be small, which are actually really big. Among other things, Nixie is the go-to person in our office for incredible hiking hacks and is always very busy. I think the last time we tried to get her on this podcast, she was rushing off to the sub-Antarctic islands, so we are very fortunate to have her here today. 

00;01;01;07 - 00;01;06;05  

Erica 

Nixie, would you like to introduce yourself to our wonderful listeners? 

00;01;06;13 - 00;01;11;24  

Nixie 

Tēnā rā tātou, ko Nixie Boddy taku ingoa. Kei Te Papa Atawhai au e mahi ana. It's so nice to be here today. 

00;01;12;10 - 00;01;18;17  

Erica 

Thanks for coming on the pod. So tell me a bit about your role at Te Papa Atawhai, at DOC. 

00;01;19;04 - 00;01;35;09  

Nixie 

Yeah so I'm a freshwater science advisor leading the critical ecosystem pressures research program. In simple terms, my job is to do research to help fill some critical knowledge gaps, to help DOC with its advocacy and conservation of our native freshwater fish and ecosystems. 

00;01;35;23 - 00;01;37;20 

Erica 

Very cool and what's your background? 

00;01;38;04 - 00;01;51;01  

Nixie 

So I have been a lover of freshwater my whole life. My dad was a hydrology technician, and my mom was a biology technician. So I guess you could say I was born into it. And my name, Nixie, means freshwater spirit in German mythology.  

00;01;52;13 - 00;01;53;06  

Erica 

That so cool. 

00;01;53;06 - 00;01;56;05  

Nixie 

I've been passionate about rivers and oceans for a long time. 

00;01;57;06 - 00;02;01;14  

Erica 

Wow. You really were led straight into this. There was no other option. Yeah. 

00;02;01;25 - 00;02;10;22  

Nixie 

No, I don't think so. But yeah, I studied at the University of Canterbury in my hometown, and I've been lucky enough to stay here and get a job at DOC. 

00;02;10;24 - 00;02;19;08  

Erica 

We're so lucky to have you. So for the freshwater newbies, a.k.a me, can you give us the definition that you and your team use for freshwater? 

00;02;19;28 - 00;02;37;02  

Nixie 

Yeah. So this is anything, you know, lakes, rivers, wetlands. We have to interact with our marine colleagues when we're getting into the brackish water. But often people don't think about subsurface water. So there's water underground as well that we have to look after, too. 

00;02;37;20 - 00;02;48;03  

Erica 

Of course, I did not consider that. So, Nixie, tell us about your passion, which I think is galaxiids. Firstly, what are they? And secondly, why do you think they're cool? 

00;02;48;20 - 00;03;13;00 

Nixie 

Oh, there's a thousand reasons why I think they're cool. They're a family of freshwater fish found only in the southern hemisphere and they were named galaxiids after this pattern of like golden and white flecks that they have across their backs, which are reminiscent of the night sky. I guess a rather romantic vision of the early explorers. 

Erica 

Beautiful! 

Nixie 

And they make up around 65% of our native fish in New Zealand. Freshwater fish that is. 

00;03;13;03 - 00;03;21;04  

Erica 

Okay. And there are different types, aren’t there? There's like the Dusky galaxiid and a few different ones. Is there one that specifically looks like the night sky or do they all? 

00;03;21;13 - 00;04;00;17 

Nixie 

Generally they all do, yeah. And the other thing that makes them really special is that they don't have any scales at all. So when you're handling them, you need to have wet hands to make sure you don't damage their skin. But they feel really wonderful and velvety when you're handling them. But broadly, you can split them into two groups, those that migrate to from the sea as part of their lifecycle, and they make up 5 out of the 6 species in the whitebait catch. 

Nixie 

And we also have non-migratory galaxiids that live their entire lives in the freshwater environments. And I specialize in the ones that live their whole lives up in the mountains. A strategic move because I love mountains. 

00;04;01;00 - 00;04;02;19  

Erica 

Nailed it. And how endangered are they? 

 00;04;02;29 - 00;04;24;05 

Nixie 

Very so we have 78 species of freshwater fish in New Zealand, of which 51 are native. And I say currently we have 78 species because we've got ongoing genetic work. We might have up to 13 more collected species to add to the list. But of those fish we have, 78% are threatened and one's extinct. So it's pretty dire. 

00;04;24;18 - 00;04;33;11  

Erica 

And when you say that there are 13 more, it's like someone has found one of them that doesn't quite look like the other ones. And so you're working on that? 

00;04;33;20 - 00;05;02;23  

Nixie 

It's mostly genetics work, actually. It's the non-migratory galaxiids that are very cryptic and they all look quite similar to each other. And actually what's caused most of the speciation and why we have so many different species is mountain uplift events. So we have such a young landmass here in New Zealand that all the geological movements are splitting catchments into– so they flow in different directions and those fish are deviating genetically and becoming different species. 

00;05;02;24 - 00;05;10;09  

Erica 

Oh, so they're going up to the mountains, that kind of thing.  

Nixie 

Yeah. Yeah.  

Erica 

Tell me about the threat to galaxiids. Why are they endangered? 

 00;05;11;01 - 00;06;01;15 

Nixie 

So the main things that are threatening them is habitat loss. So we've lost 90% of our wetlands in New Zealand and a huge proportion of our smaller streams and rivers. So these sometimes they’re drained, sometimes they’re piped or channelised. And we also have barriers to fish migration. For example, every time a road crosses a waterway, it's either on a bridge or the river gets put through a culvert, which is like those circular pipes that run under the road. 

Nixie 

And often the water flowing through there is quite shallow and fast and it is a barrier to our native fish that can't burst swim for long enough. They're not Michael Phelps, unfortunately. And they can't make it up through these barriers. And, you know, we also have issues with pollution and sedimentation from land clearing industry and agriculture and a lot of issues with introduced species. 

00;06;02;03 - 00;06;07;14  

Erica 

So when you say when you put in a fish passage, is it like a little slide that they can go up? 

00;06;07;24 - 00;06;29;23 

Nixie 

So the one we’re doing some research on at the moment is actually installing baffles, which are kind of like a set of bricks in the culvert to help slow down the water and create little eddies and pools for the fish to rest in so they can work their way up slowly. And we’re also adding ramps to the tail end of the culvert so the water– so they can climb up because sometimes it's just a drop at the end of the pipe. 

00;06;29;28 - 00;06;37;02  

Erica 

Oh, okay. And which introduced species are creating causing the most havoc, do you reckon? 

00;06;37;19 - 00;07;08;08  

Nixie 

So it depends on which part of the country you’re in, is the honest answer. In the Waikato, for instance, about 80% of the fish biomass, so that's like kilograms of fish in the river is koi carp. So huge problem there with them disturbing sediment and destroying native plants. But the non-migratory galaxiids that I specialise in, their main predator is introduced trout and it's causing huge decreases in both the population size and the distribution of our native fish. 

00;07;09;15 - 00;07;15;18  

Erica 

So we know trout are like an apex predator in the waterways. What is it that makes them such a threat to Galaxiids? 

00;07;16;06 - 00;07;58;22 

Nixie 

So in fish ecology we have a thing called the gape size hypothesis. So this is an idea that– fish don't have hands right? So if they want to eat something, they need it to come into their mouth in one go. So you can imagine swimming up a river and there’s hamburgers or chicken nuggets floating past, you're going to be aiming for the chicken nuggets right? 

Nixie 

Like you're not going to be able to get a hamburger in one go. And if you’re a trout, once you are 15 centimetres long, you can fit even the adult non-migratory galaxiids, which are only seven centimetres long into your mouth in one go. So they exert a really strong predation pressure and some science that's been done shows that an adult trout can eat up to 135 baby galaxiids in a day. 

Nixie 

So it's pretty serious. 

00;07;59;06 - 00;08;01;21 

Erica 

Oh it’s just like right animal in the wrong place, isn't it? 

00;08;01;26 - 00;08;27;13 

Nixie 

Totally. And we've been working with Fish and Game actually to put in some positive barriers. So I was talking before about, you know, these negative impacts of fish barriers to migration. There can be positive ones as well. So we intentionally install barriers in some places to stop trout from destroying native fish populations, or we install a barrier and remove trout from above the barrier to try and look after our taonga species. 

00;08;27;13 - 00;08;34;11  

Erica 

Oh cool. And they’re the places that the galaxiids are the most populated and so you give them a fighting chance. 

00;08;34;11 - 00;08;49;12  

Nixie 

Absolutely. Yeah. But in general, much of this is where bird conservation was 60 years ago. So we've got a lot of really special, really threatened species, but we're still developing the tools to kind of help them out and help their populations persist and hopefully recover. 

00;08;49;20 - 00;08;53;29  

Erica 

Brilliant. Now what about the hydropower problem? Is that a big deal?   

00;08;53;29 - 00;09;30;03 

Nixie 

Yeah. So we have a trap and transfer scheme at many of the large dams around the country where we catch eels that are migrating upstream and move them to above the lake. And we also have fish ways which like imagine a wheelchair ramp to help fish get up and around a big dam. But this is a big issue globally in North America, for example, they developed a salmon cannon.  

So you put salmon in at the bottom of the dam and it fires them out a tube into the lake at the top of the dam. But globally, this is an ongoing issue that engineers and ecologists need to work together on to help solve.  

00;09;30;03 - 00;09;33;02  

Erica 

So I'm sorry I lost everything after salmon cannon. 

00;09;33;02 - 00;09;38;28  

Nixie 

You definitely need to give it a google, there's some great stuff on YouTube. 

00;09;38;28 - 00;09;43;18  

Erica 

So can you tell me about– so we've talked about the upstream migration, but what about the downstream migration? 

00;09;44;06 - 00;10;42;08 

Nixie 

So this is a real ongoing challenge because you can imagine if you're a fish big or small, getting sucked down a turbine can be very, very difficult– 

Erica 

Fatal 

Nixie 

And possibly fatal. So there's been some quite interesting research going on internationally and to what size of fish get impacted by these things and what we can do about it. So for instance, I went to a very comedic series of talks at a conference a couple of years ago where they had an American research team who had built a robot fish and they were putting it down turbines to try and measure the size of the impacts from the blades. 

But the fish got destroyed and there was a German research team that released different sizes of sausages into the river and collected them at the bottom to see which ones came out whole. And there was a Polish research team that released different sizes of vegetables. So we're all having the same problem all around the world and it's just how we solve it.  

Erica 

And the tool that we are putting into the turbines. 

Nixie 

Absolutely.  

00;10;42;16 - 00;10;49;03  

Erica 

I wonder what we’d use in Aotearoa. And do your team use environmental DNA? 

00;10;49;22 - 00;11;52;11 

Nixie 

Yes we do. So that's kind of an emerging tool I would say. Typically we have different tools that we use for different environments. So in really slow flowing environments like wetlands or lakes or slow rivers, we use passive techniques which are like nets and traps and things like that where the fish need to swim into it so we can catch them.  

And in faster flowing environments we use things like spotlighting, going out at night with a head torch, which I recommend everyone in New Zealand goes out with the heat torch and looks in their local river. They'll be amazed at what they find. And I do a lot of electric fishing, which is a way of stunning the fish to collect them because they're the very cryptic benthic species and it's quite hard to catch some of them. 

But environmental DNA, which is pretty new on the scene, is a way of collecting water samples. So you're just you're just collecting water and they run it through a genetics analysis. Imagine like spitting in a tube to find out where your ancestors are from, right? They look through the DNA in this water to tell you what species might be in the catchment. 

00;11;52;23 - 00;12;00;24  

Erica 

I just think environmental DNA is so incredible. And the idea that you can tell which species are around just from water is very cool. 

00;12;01;00 - 00;12;17;23 

Nixie 

You do need to be careful with contamination though, because we had a– I knew a person who was working on the West Coast in a river and they had a record for some orca from the northern hemisphere. And it turns out they had sat on the plane next to a guy who had been handling Orca the day before. 

Nixie 

So you do need to be really careful. 

00;12;18;08 - 00;12;30;04  

Erica 

Wow! And also a detective to figure that out. Like, oh, the Orca guy next to me. 

Nixie 

Absolutely. 

Erica 

Oh man. And you mentioned electric fishing. Can you tell us what that is and how it works?  

00;12;30;15 - 00;13;02;11 

Nixie 

Yeah. So imagine you're out in the river, you've got your waders on and you've got a backpack on your back, much like you'd have if you were going tramping, except for in the backpack you've got batteries and you're holding an anode out at the front, which is like a wand with a kind of heart shape on the end and you're trailing a wire behind you, which is your cathode or earth wire and the machine puts pulses of electrical current through the water to stun the fish so that you can scoop them up in a net, pop them in a bucket and we can identify them, measure them, weigh them and return them to where we got them. 

00;13;02;22 - 00;13;04;15  

Erica 

And this doesn't hurt the fish? 

00;13;04;15 - 00;13;46;04 

Nixie 

No. So it requires some training to make sure that you do it well because you can injure the fish or kill the fish in a really bad situation if you do it wrong. So different rivers have different conductivities and you can think of like an urban river with a lot of heavy metal runoff that has a really high conductivity. 

So you need the electricity to be turned really low. Whereas in a mountain stream there's very little conductivity in the water, so you need to turn it up a lot higher. So it takes a lot of understanding of the speed of the water flowing in different environments, the depth of the water, the size of your target species, and also the metallic content to do a good job of it without injuring the fish.   

00;13;46;11 - 00;13;54;04  

Erica 

Wow. Okay. So all of your team very well trained before they go out into the field. It's not like something you can just do at home please.  

00;13;54;04 - 00;13;58;03  

Nixie 

No, definitely don't do it at home.  

00;13;58;03 - 00;14;00;26  

Erica 

Nixie, can you tell me about the success rate of electrofishing? 

00;14;01;08 - 00;14;25;14 

Nixie 

Yeah. So it's very, very effective if it's done well, which is why we do it right. Because the goal is to catch every fish that is in that part of the river. And the reason we're only allowed to do it for science is because in other countries have done it commercially. And now in some parts of Asia, there's lakes where there's not a single fish present.  

Nixie 

So you have to be careful about who you allow to do this kind of fishing. 

00;14;25;21 - 00;14;28;05  

Erica 

Very effective in the wrong direction. Got it. 

00;14;28;14 - 00;15;04;15 

Nixie 

Absolutely. But you often get a huge surprise as well. So one day I was fishing in a tiny tributary stream of Te Waihora, Lake Ellesmere, and it would have been maybe ten centimeters deep. And then there was this huge commotion, water flying everywhere and an eel that was like two and a half meters long, 30 kilos, diameter of a dinner plate, like enormous, just came flying out like a taniwha and took off down the river, completely destroying our nets. 

And it and it was one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had. But I got a fright every time I heard a splash for the rest of the day. 

00;15;05;20 - 00;15;18;18 

Erica 

I’m not surprised! I feel like it gave him a fright as well. Wow. Okay. So it would have it would have given a bit of a shock, but really just a wake up. And then he was out of there. 

00;15;18;28 - 00;15;30;04  

Nixie 

Yeah. So it's a situation where the longer the fish is, the more it's affected by electric fishing. So you need to make sure if you've got a big animal like that, that you don't hold the button down too long. 

00;15;30;14 - 00;15;37;15  

Erica 

Well my next question is what's the most unexpected thing you've encountered in the field, but I feel like it's a big eel ripping through your fish nets right? 

00;15;37;15 - 00;15;58;10  

Nixie 

Yeah that's definitely up there. I think the only other one that leaps to mind was earlier this year down in the Aparima River catchment and some naked bogans ran past. Turns out they'd been skinny dipping in our field site. So you never know what you’ll see on a day in the field. 

00;15;58;15 - 00;16;10;15  

Erica 

You certainly don't. I hope they didn't step on any fish while they were being naked bogans. Oh. So tell me about the freshwater fish, or not fish, that can swim upstream.  

00;16;11;00 - 00;17;58;12 

Nixie 

So the migratory galaxiids are just amazing. So I'll just give you an example of a couple that we find in the whitebait catch. And to give you an idea of like the size that we're talking about here, when they're going out to sea, my friend described as the size of a nail clipping, tiny, tiny fish, and we don't know a lot about the part of their lifecycle while they're out at sea because they're so small and so hard to find.  

So we've mostly studied them as they've come back into the lakes and rivers. So at the smaller end of the spectrum we have inanga, which is one of the most common ones people see with a really silvery belly, it's really distinguishable. They live for like a year or so and grow about ten centimeters long and they're the most widely distributed native freshwater fish in the world, found as far away as Australia, Chile and Argentina. 

And they have this really cool adaptation to stop other fish from eating their eggs where they wait for a big high tide like a king high tide or a spring high tide. And they lay their eggs on the vegetation hanging over the river. So as the water recedes, their eggs are safely out of the water. And then when the next flood comes through, it takes the eggs straight out to sea. 

 And that was a great strategy before we had introduced predators like rats and mice and things. Unfortunately, that tactic doesn't work so well now. But then at the bigger end of the spectrum, we have the giant kōkopu and they're the largest galaxiids in the world. The biggest ever recorded was 2.8kgs in 580mm long. So they're pretty fat for their length and so beautiful. 

 And they can live for over 20 years, predominantly in forested streams near the coast. So they've been quite impacted by land use change near the coast, but they're definitely not what most people imagine when they see a whitebait, but it'll grow up to be. 

00;17;59;29 - 00;18;19;07  

Erica 

Wow, all of these different fish that you're like giving us this wonderful profile of. If I went out with my torch at night and spotlighted in a river, would I be able to see what they are? I mean, maybe not see the 2.8 kilogram giant kōkopu, but can you differentiate as like me? 

00;18;19;16 - 00;18;37;19  

Nixie 

Yeah, absolutely you can. I think the non-migratory galaxiids that I study in the high country they look very similar between species but the migratory species that the whitebait grow up to be look really distinctly different. So you could print yourself out an ID guide and absolutely go for it with your family camping this summer. It'd be great. 

00;18;37;19 - 00;18;40;16  

Erica 

I’ll see you guys out there, amazing. 

00;18;40;16 - 00;19;10;10 

Nixie 

I have an inkling though that your favourite of all the galaxiids, Erica, might be the kōaro, which is the climbing galaxiid, so it uses its grippy fins to climb vertical waterfalls. All it needs is a damp surface and it can migrate up to 400 kilometers inland climb up to– it's been found at 1300 meters elevation, just climbing waterfalls up into the mountains. 

And you really need to keep an eye on them because if you're out with your family and you catch one and put it in a bucket, it'll climb outside of your bucket and do a runner. You need to be careful. 

00;19;11;01 - 00;19;15;26  

Erica 

That’s so clever. So they don't need fish passages being helped for them, do they? 

00;19;16;02 - 00;19;21;11  

Nixie 

They're one of the species that that's really resilient, with the fish passage challenges. 

00;19;21;12 - 00;19;31;15  

Erica 

That definitely already my favourite species. Sorry all the other species. Now what's your biggest conservation win in recent memory? I bet you've got heaps. 

00;19;31;25 - 00;20;07;22 

Nixie 

Well, I think really, really up there for me was doubling the known distribution of Upland Longjaw galaxiids in the Hopkins River. So we were out for a day in the field and we had really limited time and I just decided to spend my whole time allocation 4WD driving upstream and we were really lucky. We found this huge gravid female, gravid means full of eggs, Upland longjaw and we were just so excited. We named her Queen Madge the fecund, the queen of the high country and hopefully she'll have lots and lots of babies and keep that species healthy and strong. 

00;20;07;25 - 00;20;09;19  

Erica 

That is such a good one. 

00;20;09;19 - 00;20;39;27  

Nixie 

I think genuinely in my work it's actually really satisfying chipping away at new knowledge in a specific area. So whether that’s understanding how non-migratory galaxiids are affected by climate change, both, you know, flood flows and droughts or whether it's testing tools to help our native fish species migrate upstream through the challenges they face. I think gradually gaining knowledge over time to improve our conservation and management is really, really satisfying. 

00;20;40;12 - 00;20;51;08  

Erica 

And so valuable as well. That kind of brings me to things in the field not always going to plan. Can you tell me about a time when something went wrong? 

00;20;51;17 - 00;21;52;24 

Nixie 

I actually think one of the funniest stories I have about this was during my PhD. So to break up the kind of, I don’t want to say monotony, because fieldwork is really fun. But if you're doing it all the time, it can be a bit monotonous. I started doing fancy dress fieldwork Fridays and we would choose a different costume theme every week and one week my field assistant, who is a delightful man, he had some Star Wars costumes, so I was dressed as Boba Fett and he was dressed as a stormtrooper. 

And we had all the electric fishing gear and we were out in the Canterbury High Country electric fishing, and we walked past a school group who was out there learning how to navigate and tramp. And this little ten year old boy looked across at us and was like “they’re from Star Wars!” And then I was like, we have to keep a business face now. 

Like, we can't crack up and laugh. You know, we're saving the galaxy and the galaxiids today. 

00;21;52;24 - 00;21;58;25  

Erica 

Oh, that's amazing. Did you ever do– because they look a bit like Ghostbuster, you know, vacuum cleaners. Did you ever do Ghostbusters? 

00;21;58;29 - 00;22;16;21  

Nixie 

We haven't, no, but we, you know, we dressed up as the different New Zealand blacks and whites for the Cricket World Cup. We dressed up in full stripes, for earning our stripes as scientists and as superheroes. We had Superman and Thor. 

Nixie 

We got a giggle out of the public for sure. 

00;22;17;21 - 00;22;25;11  

Erica 

You've seen climbing galaxiids climb up walls, out of buckets. What's the weirdest thing that you've seen a species do? 

00;22;26;00 - 00;23;58;16 

Nixie 

I think some of the coolest and weirdest species we have are the lamprey, right? These are kanakana lamprey. They're prehistoric fish, 360 million years old. They were around when we had dinosaurs in New Zealand. Like they're incredibly ancient. They've got no jaws, they've got no bones. They’re basically just like a round mouth full of teeth and they suck their way up waterfalls, imagine a plunger right. They use a vacuum to suck their way up waterfalls, absolutely wild creatures.  

But they're a taonga and mahinga kai species that's nationally vulnerable around the country. And it takes nine years for them to complete their wild life cycle. So the little guys, they grow up in sandy bars and rivers and come out of the sand at night to feed and then they head out to sea when they're a bit older for several years and they're parasitic and they attach themselves to fish and sharks and whales and just live off their bodily juices, which is never something you should ever say out loud. 

 And then when they're ready, they turn this like amazing electric blue colour, and then they come back into the rivers and migrate sometimes hundreds of kilometres upstream before they burrow into a hole in the riverbank or under a large rock. And then they don't eat for 12 to 18 months. They just hang out with their friends and then they emerge and breed in a rocky nest and then die. 

So it's an incredibly dramatic life cycle. They're incredible creatures. 

00;23;58;29 - 00;24;31;14 

Erica 

Nature. That might be my favourite new species. And I've seen a video of one where someone's got one on their arm and they're like, just like a plunger, but a life sucking plunger. 

Nixie 

Suctioned on there, yeah. 

Erica 

Amazing. So now we have a new section, which I'm very excited about, which is questions from listeners. We asked on our Instagram for people's questions and got so many responses. One of them is what kinds of damage are the invasive golden mussels causing? 

00;24;31;25 - 00;25;03;13  

Nixie 

So these golden clams, they're really new additions to the New Zealand environment. We only discovered them earlier this year. And what they can do is they are very effective at breeding and colonizing new places and they can just take over environments. So they'll smother the whole surface of the waterway. And that is really bad for things like the kākahi, our fresh water mussels and also for kōura and our other large invertebrates that need to live in those places. 

00;25;04;07 - 00;25;11;01  

Erica 

And they're already having a difficult time as it is. So how do you think Golden Clams got into New Zealand? 

00;25;11;11 - 00;25;52;14 

Nixie 

So the leading theory so far is that they came in in the bilge tanks of wakeboarding boats. So you have to empty your bilge tanks before you go between waterways, but it's very hard to completely empty them and it's impossible to check them. So bilge tanks generally are like when you're transporting often freight around the place, all the freighting boats have bilge tanks. 

When they're empty of their load, they take on water to stabilize the boat. And when they get to their destination they let the water out right. And take the load back on. So bilge water has historically been a huge way to spread invasive organisms around the country and around the world. 

00;25;52;14 - 00;25;55;21  

Erica 

Gosh it really shows you the importance of biosecurity, hey.  

00;25;55;25 - 00;26;06;00  

Nixie 

Hugely, because like these golden clams, they've never been removed from a place they've invaded. So it's a very serious tackle in the next few years. 

00;26;06;25 - 00;26;16;13  

Erica 

Someone wanted to know if, ooh, let's do this word, eutrophication, excess nutrients. Is that causing an issue in freshwater lakes and how do we deal with that? 

00;26;16;23 - 00;27;43;16 

Nixie 

Yes. So eutrophication is excess of nutrients, absolutely. And there's a few ways they get into the system. So I think the typical way everyone thinks of is from industry or from agriculture, particularly nitrogen and phosphorus, which are the main limiting nutrients in freshwater ecosystems. And they often cause toxic algal blooms which are really bad, or they can be beyond the tolerances of our native species.  

So they just don't do very well or they can't live there anymore. But we also get some eutrophication problems from really surprising sources. So for example, volcanic soil is really high in phosphorus. So if you have land clearance for, you know, forestry or subdivisions or anything near a waterway in a volcanic region, a lot of phosphorus can get into the waterways and cause huge problems. 

But we've also had places where we've had really unintended impacts of eutrophication, where, for example, there's a lake in the North Island where they built a predator proof fence around it to try and, you know, get the ecosystem thriving and doing really well. But without the predators, the birds went crazy. Not our native birds – it was like ducks, Canadian geese, sparrows, all sorts of things. 

And there was so much bird poo that the nutrients turned the lake eutrophic. So, you know, the best of intentions cannot always land where you expect them to. But it's a major issue in freshwater systems. 

00;27;43;23 - 00;27;51;09  

Erica 

Wow. I don't know who saw that coming. What types of macro invertebrates sampling do you do? 

00;27;51;22 - 00;28;34;25 

Nixie 

I do very little, but it's a really– macro invertebrates, which are like the large bugs that live in freshwater streams. Often the juvenile stages of bugs that will have– the adults will fly and get eaten by spiders and birds and all sorts of things. But there's a really wide array of tolerances in our macro invertebrates, so some of them, like snails and worms, are very tolerant of high levels of sediment and nutrients. 

So they'll survive in really degraded systems and others like mayflies and stone flies, they're really sensitive. So you'll only find them in really pristine systems. So sampling macro invertebrates is a way we can gauge the ecosystem health in different places. 

00;28;35;03 - 00;28;42;12  

Erica 

I am loving this ask an expert. What– we also got questions about freshwater leeches and jellyfish. Do we have those in Aotearoa?  

00;28;42;20 - 00;29;01;06  

Nixie 

We do have freshwater leeches. As far as I know, I have never met anybody that's ever been bitten by one. There's lots of leeches that don't attach to people, so I wouldn't worry about it. And I've not heard of us having any freshwater jellyfish. But, you know, it's a big world out there. Maybe someone will find one. 

00;29;02;11 - 00;29;10;23  

Erica 

So much still to discover. Now, this is a big one and one that we get often does using poison for pest control affect water quality? 

00;29;11;02 - 00;30;17;18 

Nixie 

The short answer is no, not as far as we know. So it's biodegradable. It breaks down really quickly. And from the testing that has been done, there's been no effects on fish. But I think it's worth mentioning briefly that pest control is really advantageous for freshwater ecosystems. So not only do the rats and the stoats, they eat freshwater kōura, the freshwater crayfish, they eat the eggs of fish, they eat whole fish. 

 But also on the flipside, they provide prey for some of our introduced fish. So for example, mice often swim across rivers when they're trying to get to new habitats and the trout love to eat them. So if you have a beech mast event and there's a huge number of mice around the trout get really, really big. And we were talking about the gape size hypothesis before, and how if you have a bigger predator, they exert a larger impact in these kind of systems – making a trout really big from a mouse plague is really dangerous for the fresh water ecosystem it lives within. So it's very beneficial within the freshwater ecosystem for the pest numbers to remain low. 

00;30;18;09 - 00;30;32;08  

Erica 

For people interested in learning more about that topic, we have a load of research on our website doc.govt.nz so you can check it out. Now we have a rapid round – ta listeners – Do kōkopu have scales? 

00;30;32;25 - 00;30;38;04  

Nixie 

No. As discussed before, we have several species of kōkopu in New Zealand and none of them have scales.  

00;30;38;16 - 00;30;40;16  

Erica 

Are freshwater translocations common?  

00;30;40;28 - 00;30;59;02  

Nixie 

There's a lot less recently. We have to be careful when we’re translocating things because we can take diseases with them, we can take pest species with them, we can take parasites with them. So we need to be quite careful that not only are they being put into the right environment where they'll do well and thrive, but that they're not bringing anything nasty with them. 

00;30;59;11 - 00;31;02;25  

Erica 

Can a dam lake be turned into a breeding habitat for native fish? 

00;31;03;06 - 00;31;09;03  

Nixie 

Outside my area of expertise. But I imagine it would help if it was surrounded by a bit of wetland habitat.  

00;31;09;03 - 00;31;12;16  

Erica 

And how do experts map the freshwater health and quality? 

00;31;12;25 - 00;31;37;08 

Nixie 

So this is actually falling within the jurisdiction of the regional councils rather than DOC. So anything to do with water quality is there’s to look after. So they have all the mapping tools but there's some really, really cool new development where they're using drone imagery and using different frequencies of light to assess water quality from aerial imagery. 

Nixie 

So the future looks really cool in that space. 

00;31;37;22 - 00;31;55;20  

Erica 

Another thing that listeners wanted to know about was Whitebait [season]. Now Nixie, I know it's not your particular wheelhouse on policy and all of that. If you want to know more about that, there is a lot on our website, but what I can ask you is about the galaxiid breeding cycle and ecosystem.  

00;31;56;03 - 00;33;20;21 

Nixie 

I think one thing that people would find interesting is that the whitebait species don't return to their home stream unlike a lot of other migratory species we have around the world, like salmon. So it means we're doing a lot of work to try and understand for a particular area that people are doing white baiting in or a particular area where we're trying to protect whitebait populations. 

 We need to figure out where the babies are coming from, right? So we're finding different areas of the country are kind of working like a big whirlpool. And the babies are kind of being moved from one area to another. And we need make sure that we're identifying and protecting those kind of source populations that might be feeding a much larger region. 

I think habitat loss is one of the biggest challenges freshwater fish around New Zealand are facing regardless of species, and this is certainly true of whitebait. So the best thing that people out there that are passionate about whitebait can do is if you have any land that borders a waterway or there’s community land or land that your friend owns,  if you can make sure that it's planted up with native plants ideally, anything that droops into the water is good. 

 Even if it's grass, don't mow right down to the edge or maybe try and fence the animals so they don't get right down to the edge. So there is that vegetation for the adults to lay the eggs on because if they haven't got anything to lay their eggs on, they can't complete their lifecycle. Oh, so that would be my plug of something that people that care about whitebait can do. 

00;33;21;12 - 00;33;53;06 

Erica 

That’s all from listeners for now we didn't get to everything and some stuff is a whole new topic. If you have topics tell us in the comments when we launch this episode. Thank you so much for writing in. 

Erica 

Now Nixie, you work in remote mountains, which just sounds like the best job in the world. What is your, you must have many, hack item or essential item that you take with you when you're working in the field?  

00;33;53;06 - 00;34;48;17 

Nixie 

Well the practical answer to this is polarized sunglasses because it makes it so much easier to see into the water, which is what you need to do when you're trying to catch some fish, with what’s essentially a sieve attached to the end of a broom handle. But the honest answer for me is we do really long days work when we're in the field because it takes a lot of time and resource to get out there. 

Nixie 

So we want to make the most of it. So the real best things to take are lots of really tasty snacks and a great playlist. And this year I discovered a few new songs that I've been really enjoying. Fish songs, of course, one of them's called Fishing in the Dark. Very like American country singing vibe and the other one's called Waders, and the main line of the chorus is “I love my woman with their waders on’, which is something I think we can all get behind. But it's great for keeping up morale when it's cold and dark.   

00;34;48;17 - 00;34;56;09  

Erica 

Oh, and do you have a fishing playlist as well? Do you have like a what's it called, is it on spotify, can we find it?   

00;34;56;12 - 00;35;06;14  

Nixie 

My colleagues got a better one that I do, but we're looking to expand it. So any listeners out there, if you've got musical talent, we would love to have some songs about our native fish to listen to. 

00;35;06;14 - 00;35;11;10  

Erica 

We should have them. It shouldn't just be America that gets them. We've got amazing fish.   

00;35;11;16 - 00;35;13;09  

Nixie 

And amazing musicians. Yeah.  

00;35;13;20 - 00;35;20;19  

Erica 

And amazing musicians. Put them together. And what's something about nature that just blew your mind when you learned it? 

00;35;21;06 - 00;36;10;09 

Nixie 

So I think one of my favourite species, because of it’s characteristics, is the panoko or torrent fish. And I could not believe that an F1 car and a native freshwater fish in New Zealand could have so much in common. So this the panoko is a relative of the blue cod, but it only lives in freshwater environments and it migrates to and from the sea and it specializes in really fast flowing rivers and uses it’s F1 car body shape, so it has a really slanted head and it has these fins that are angled so the water flowing across it produces downforce the same way that spoilers on an F1 car produce downforce to stick it to the bed of the river so it can put in no effort and stay stuck to the ground in this really fast flowing environment.  

00;36;11;03 - 00;36;23;15  

Erica 

That is a very cool fish. I think that's the only fish that could get me into car racing. Sounds cooler than that. Wow. And thinking back to your first ever day on the job, what advice would you give young Nixie.  

00;36;23;24 - 00;36;47;01  

Nixie 

I think the biggest thing that I've learned is that conservation isn’t a matter of knowledge, whether that be scientific knowledge or mātauranga, but it's a social and political process. So networking and communicating science is really, really important to actually get the information that we're learning and generating out there so that decision makers and the public can understand it and use it so that we can really make things happen.  

00;36;47;25 - 00;36;58;17  

Erica 

So people care about things like the kākāpō and the whio. Why should people care about random fish that they never see just as much as the others that are more profiled? 

00;36;58;20 - 00;37;50;18 

Nixie 

Well, I'm obviously the most biased person you could possibly ask but I’m hoping just what I've talked about in this interview will inspire people to care more about them. They have this incredible array of traits and adaptations to the environment. I think one thing I haven't touched on yet is one of the reasons why I love and study non-migratory galaxiids is that they've got less vertebrate than other fish, so it means they're more flexible. 

And so you can burrow down and into the gravels and sediments and it means they can live in these really extreme environments where you have droughts and you have floods. And they’ve found these fish eggs up to 25 centimetres down into the gravels. So they just– our native fish are amazing. They're so well-adapted to their environment, but they're struggling because they're getting all these extra pressures, be that from introduce species, land use change, climate change, it's all making it a lot more challenging for them.  

00;37;50;29 - 00;37;55;24  

Erica 

Is that how the Canterbury mud fish survives as well? Do you know much about the mud fish?  

00;37;56;04 - 0;38;53;03 

Nixie 

I know a little bit about the mud fish. They're incredible animals, so the galaxiids, they’re part of the galaxiid family. So they just have skin, they don't have scales. And as long as they stay moist, they can breathe across their skin. So it means they can survive dry periods. They just burrow into a muddy bank and they lay belly up and they can take oxygen across their bellies. 

But mud fish are amazing as well, in that they again, they have this vertebrae, too. They're really good at burrowing. And we did this amazing work on the west coast with the brown mudfish. And we found that they're moving through substrate of the forest floor. So it's so wet over there and everything is so drenched that as a trial we dug a hole in the forest floor and put a fish trap in it. 

And we caught a fish. So if you have these pools in the forest and you tag fish, you find them in a different pool. It's just incredible. 

00;38;53;09 - 00;38;55;09  

Erica 

Oh, so they're like tunnelling under the forest? 

00;38;55;24 - 00;38;58;20  

Nixie 

Yeah. Yes, they’re so well-adapted to where they're living. 

 00;38;58;26 - 00;39;05;22  

Erica 

And I hear you've also got a whole hoist of awesome mussel facts. Would you like to regale us with some of those?  

00;39;05;29 - 00;40;59;23 

Nixie 

Yeah. So the kākahi, well, there's many Māori names for the kākahi. That's one of them. They’re the New Zealand freshwater mussels. There's three species and they have a really cool life history where they need the babies to attach themselves to fish. So that's both for– they operate as parasites, so they live for a while there.  

Nixie 

And it's also– the fish is how they move, so they attach themselves to a fish. It'd be like getting on the bus and they move upstream or downstream and they jump off and live in a nice–   

Erica 

Fish house! 

Nixie 

Yeah, yeah. It's a public transportation system. So as we're losing a lot of native fish species, it's of course impacting the freshwater mussels, the kākahi, which are a really prized māhinga kai species. But we don't know a huge amount about our native mussels. We do know that a huge and interesting part of their lifecycle is how you convince a fish to get infected with your babies. 

Nixie 

Right? So there's one of our rarer species in New Zealand, we have three and they release a lure, which is basically like a weird bag, mucus-y bag that looks a bit like a drifting freshwater invertebrate and it's full of babies. So when the fish bites into it, it just explodes in its face. But there's some amazing strategies on the freshwater mussels overseas.  

Nixie 

Some of them open themselves up and so the fish kind of swim in thinking that it's dead and that they can have a snack and then they close, trapping the fish's head and explode babies into the fish's face before releasing it. So there's lots and lots of different tactics. Some of them actually get up onto the banks and they angle themselves out of the water and fire water filled with their babies out into the current so that the fish think it's an invertebrate or something falling into the river and eat it. 

Nixie 

So they're just the most amazing animals. And you should definitely interview someone who's more of an expert and do a whole episode on them. They're incredible.  

00;41;00;10 - 00;41;12;02  

Erica 

I just want 20 more minutes of this. I think how to convince a fish to get infected with your babies was not on my 2023 bucket list. So thank you very much for that. Nature, it's gross and amazing. 

00;41;12;02 - 00;41;37;15  

Nixie 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But you can imagine in terms of the persistence of important species like this, they're reliant on the fish. Absolutely. As part of their lifecycle. And most of the species can't use non-native fish the same way they use the native ones their adapted with. And if you have a fish passage barrier it’s stopping them from dispersing upstream. So you might have a population of mussels, but there might be no new recruits coming in because no fish are bringing them back in.  

00;41;37;15 - 00;41;41;15  

Erica 

And what can everyday people do to help freshwater conservation?  

00;41;41;22 - 00;42;11;02  

Nixie 

Well, I think apart from planting up your riparian zones and making sure that they're not mown or grazed is a huge thing people can do. But honestly, I think the best thing is tell your favourite stories to your best friends, your neighbours, random people in the supermarket, anybody and try and actually go out at night with a spotlight some time.   

Nixie 

Have a look at our native fish and be passionate. Spread the word because it's only with the public groundswell of interest and support that we can really make a difference for these guys. 

00;42;11;10 - 00;42;45;25 

Erica 

Absolutely. There are so many stories just in the last 5 minutes that I will be regaling at barbecues. I cannot wait to talk about exploding babies in peoples faces. That brings us to the end. Nixie Boddy, thank you so much for your time exploring the world of the freshwater ecosystem with us. I have no doubt that you've piqued interest for our listeners who will be looking into all of these different species as we speak. 

Thank you again. We really appreciate it.  

Nixie 

Thank you so much for having me. It's been really fun. 

00;42;45;25 - 00;43;20;07  

Erica 

Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Erika Wilkinson, and this has been the Sounds of Science podcast. The show is available wherever you get your podcasts or you can stream it off our website. www.doc.govt.nz. The show is produced by Jayne Ramage with editing by Lucy Holyoake. If you enjoyed this episode, show us some love with a five star rating. 

00;00;05;10 - 00;00;19;07

Erica

Kia ora! I'm Erica Wilkinson and this is the DOC Sounds of Science podcast.

Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science.

00;00;21;14 - 00;00;29;06

Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s technical experts, scientists, rangers and the experts in between.

00;00;32;25 - 00;00;55;11

Erica

This is Part II of our interview with kiwi expert Tim Raemaekers. 

In Part I Tim shared some of his favourite stories from his work with rare species, including yarns about kākāpō and kiwi, and a rather unusual story about a vampire toutouwai/Robin…

In Part II, we delve into the work behind the Fiordland Kiwi Diaries, DOC’s exclusive mini-series about the work to save tokoeka kiwi in Fiordland.

00;00;55;23 - 00;01;05;02

We get into the nitty gritty of threats to kiwi survival, and how and why we use 1080.

Here’s Part II of the DOC Sounds of Science Podcast with Tim Raemaekers.

00;01;05;29 - 00;01;49;06

Tim

There have been some sort of pretty big highs and lows in the kiwi project and those stick with me, not because they were sort of particularly unique, but because they had quite a lot of emotional impact.

You might know that we were monitoring Kiwi for three years at Shy Lake prior to there ever being any predator control in the area and we had zero survival of the kiwi chicks during that time, most of those were due to stoat predation.

00;01;49;29 - 00;03;51;01

Tim

And then after three years we finally got the predator control that we'd been waiting for and it was looking really, really good. We had no stoats turning up at cameras on nests, we had no stoats turning up on tracking tunnels. We had chicks that had arrived and were surviving longer than chicks ever had.

And then come sort of December, we hit the point where the new cohort of stoats arrived. So they've been up in a den and all these little baby stoats and they sort of spill out into landscape and you have a lot more stoats than you might otherwise have.

So basically almost all the stoats had been controlled by the 1080 operation that had been done, but there were still one or two around and they sort of turned into a handful more.

There were still hardly any around, but they found our kiwi chicks. Stoats are amazing predators, they’re really good at finding kiwi chicks. That's why we're monitoring kiwi chicks directly. That's the only way to really find out if it's working because you can be looking for stoats and not finding them. But if you look at kiwi chicks, then you'll get your answer.

And we found that some of our kiwi chicks were still getting killed by stoats and you know, I'd had really high hopes and was feeling pretty optimistic that we were making a really positive difference. And suddenly it looked like we might just be the same old story of no kiwi chicks surviving. And that was a pretty big hit to morale and something I found really tough to deal with.

You know, I've been working towards it for nearly four years at that point and it looked like it was all going to go down the pan and that was that. So yeah, that was that was a pretty tough moment.

But then set against that, there've also been some really good highs and just a few months later, some of those kiwi chicks that did survive hit what we call the sort of stoat safe weight.

So when they get to about six months old or about a kilo, then they're big enough and feisty enough and strong enough to fend off a stoat. And going to meet the first chicks as part of that study that I'd ever made it sort of through the danger zone. And were basically going to be pretty safe for the rest of their lives, for decades.

That was a pretty special moment. And being like, yes, this is what we're here for. We've been a part of this and that sort of, you know, these birds have had a future and we've been a part of that. So yeah, that was– definitely still sticks in the mind, even though it's a couple of years ago now.

00;03;51;12 - 00;04;12;24

Erica

Oh, I bet you’d never forget that. I feel like it takes quite a lot of stoicism and morale to get through the three years that you did.

Let's talk about Fiordland Kiwi Diaries. Some of our listeners will have watched the three part series that Tim stars in. It is on the DOC YouTube. If you haven't found it. Tim, what's the series about and how did it start?

00;04;13;11 - 00;05;24;19

Tim

I guess the series is charting what we're doing or trying to do for kiwi in Fiordland and how. So there's a few different components to it and we're trying to do predator control in areas that have kiwi, but they don't have any protection. And the Sky Lake kiwi monitoring program is about monitoring the kiwi to make sure that we're doing that in the best way and getting the results that we think we are.

So we're not just doing a bunch of predator control and assuming it's working, we're actually testing it and we're saying how can we do this the best way? And that's quite a long and involved process. It takes years. I guess the kiwi series is kind of charting that story from what's the status quo for most kiwi in Fiordland and what happens when we intervene to try and improve the situation.

And so it was, you know the filming for that started before we had that answer. So it's been done in quite a genuine way, I think, of actually kind of charting that story. It's not acted, you know. And I guess it just like follows that journey.

00;05;25;02 - 00;05;30;10

Erica

So during the filming you would have got through to the result. What kind of results did you get?

00;05;30;15 - 00;06;46;03

Tim

Well, prior to the predator control, over three years, we monitored 34 kiwi chicks and zero of those survived, probably 80% plus of those were killed by stoats and none of them made it to more than about six weeks old, which is a long way from the six months they need to get to be safe. So like, it was just absolutely hopeless, getting nowhere.

It was worse than we expected. We knew it wasn't going to be great, but it was worse than we expected. And after the 1080 operation we saw that we had probably– it was just over 20% survival of the Kiwi chicks in those couple of years.

Not all of those dead ones were due to stoats. There was a variety of other reasons– where there’s livestock, there’s dead stock and Fiordland is a hard environment, and kiwi do have some natural predators as well. But yes, stoats are the big thing and they're the thing we can control.

So I was probably hoping that we would have slightly better survival than that. But basically the numbers have been run by science experts and it looks like that is enough to grow that kiwi population.

So that was our goal, to take a declining Kiwi population and turn it into a growing Kiwi population, then to just keep refining how we could do the best. So it looks like we're achieving that and that's great. That's what we're here for.

00;06;46;11 - 00;06;48;21

Erica

Can you tell us about the terrain that you're navigating?

00;06;49;02 - 00;08;19;10

Tim

Yeah, it's hard. Fiordland is really steep and really rugged and really wet. It's a difficult place to work and it's really remote as well. So our study site at Shy Lake is just a little piece of the wider 1080 control area. So what we're doing is a sample, a representative sample, and we chose that site because it's the easiest place in the area to work.

That's the place that we can actually do the study. So everywhere else is a little bit harder. This place is got some nice terraces you can follow around and get around the cliffs and things, whereas everywhere else in the area is just like a swampy valley and then a cliff. And then there's some sort of gnarly tops. So I think it would be extremely difficult to have an effective trapping program there.

I think the gaps between the traplines would be too big and I think it would be probably dangerous to try, people would get hurt. And it would be incredibly expensive as well, it's a really remote site when you're getting people there to do those traps all the time, that's really expensive, you know, and it's a helicopter ride to get out there every time or an even more expensive boat ride.

The other thing about a trapping program, it's really good in some places, right, it’s horses for courses. We've got big trapping programs in Fiordland that are successful, but there are reasons why they're good for those sites.

For example, on nearby Resolution Island, we've got a trapping program, but 1080 is not really an option for us there because it doesn't have rats and we need the rats to get the 1080 to the stoats.

00;08;20;00 - 00;08;24;17

Erica

Tim, you mentioned you need rats in order to get the 1080 to the stoats. Can you just walk us through that?

00;08;24;27 - 00;10;20;22

Tim

Yeah, that's right. We don't currently have a way to deliver 1080 directly to stoats. So the 1080 is in a little cereal pellet that gets dropped from a helicopter and the rats eat the pellet and then the stoats eat what is now a toxic dead rat. And that's how stoats get killed. So we don't have a way to directly deliver the toxin to those stoats at the moment.

Tim

So we actually are dependent on having some rats, which are a problem in themselves, to get 1080 into stoats. But what we've discovered in this project is that we probably don't need as many rats as we thought.

So typically a lot of aerial 1080 operations around the country are focused on really big spikes in the rat population, driven by elevated fruiting levels in the forest, and they are– those operations are happening to combat extinction risks to the populations at those sites of the species we're trying to save.

Tim

So we're like, oh, there's going to be like ten times as many rats as there normally are. And that's going to be really, really bad news. For kiwi it's a little bit different. Kiwi are big enough that rats aren't really a direct threat to them like that, it’s just stoats that we care about.

And what we have seen in this project is that you can get effective control of stoats from a starting population of rats which is way lower than those operations normally happen.

And that actually opened some doors for us. That's really good news because it means we can do those operations kind of any time instead of being tied into those big spikes in the rat population, which means that there's a bit of a queue to get a lot of operations through at the same time. So this really gives us an opportunity to protect Kiwi across big scales that we didn't necessarily have before.

00;10;20;25 - 00;10;28;18

Erica

Oh is a lot of strategic planning that must go into that. So the breeding pace of kiwi versus stoats. Is that the heart of the problem?

00;10;29;09 - 00;11;34;18

Tim

It's certainly up there. I think that, yeah. So stoats in a really good year where they've got abundant food a female stoat might produce, I think it's up to like 14 kits in a season and then if it's a good season and that abundant food stays there, then those 14 kits might survive through to the next season.

And stoats run on a really high motor, hey, they're always active. They need to be eating a lot. And so they're just kind of bombing around the place, killing whatever they can find all the time, caching it for later for harder times. So they're, you know, it doesn't take that many stoats to be having a really big impact on the system. Whereas Kiwi, they live life in the slow lane.

00;11;44;09 - 00;12;33;03

Tim

They live for a long time. They'll mostly produce one chick a year at best and it takes them a long time to build up a population. So, you know, if a stoat needs to sort of eat the equivalent of a Kiwi chick every couple of days. And the kiwi chicks, the kiwi are only making one chick a year. You can see it doesn't really add up.

00;11;34;23 - 00;11;44;05

Erica

No, it doesn't. And you say 14 kits in the season and then they're also– when the kit starts out, isn’t it– it's already on its way to having children.

00;11;44;09 - 00;12;33;03

Tim

It sure is, it’s pretty creepy. So when the female stoat kits in a nest, that are still kind of blind and hairless, the male that mated with the adult female, the mother, will come back or some other male, any male that can find the nest will come back and impregnate all those little female stoat kit babies. And so they will then hold them, hold that pregnancy over the year, they go out into the environment. And whilst they won't actually have babies of their own until the following spring, they're primed, they're ready, and that's what makes them so good at dispersing. So if they go into a new place, like, say they invade an island that doesn't have stoats, they don't need to meet a male there, they're already pregnant and they're already ready. They're just a ticking time bomb.

00;12;33;07 - 00;12;46;07

Erica

Oh my gosh. That is one of the most disgusting nature facts I've ever heard. It's fascinating, but it's horrible.  What was it like having someone follow your work with a camera?

00;12;46;13 - 00;13;36;21

Tim

I actually found it really fun doing the filming work. I've done some filming work before, both at Shy Lake with Kiwi and in the kākāpō recovery program as well. And yeah, it's really nice. The nature of the site means that you can't have like a big elaborate set up.

It's just one or maybe two people and the cameras are really small now and so they just come around the hill with us and they do what we do and it's a really collaborative thing, especially making this series.

Then Belle, the director and Lucy, when she came out there, they're part of DOC. They're motivated by the same things that we are. We're all there for the same goal, and so we're working together. It was really fun. I'm always keen to kind of explain what we're trying to do because I definitely feel like we're fighting the good fight.

And it was it was just a fun opportunity to get out there and do our job … but with a few extra tea breaks.

00;13;37;03 - 00;13;50;05

Erica

So onto Fiordland Kiwi Diaries, the narrative, so the series follows that process. And you've mentioned that some chicks were unfortunately killed. What happened, did the stoats come back, was that re-invasion?

00;13;50;20 - 00;17;07;04

Tim

I think initially it's hard to be exactly sure. What we did see was that prior to the 1080 operation, we were seeing stoats appearing on the cameras that were outside 90% of our kiwi nests. They were everywhere and they were coming back.

You could see them coming back and it's just a matter of time before they encounter that little kiwi chick that's got to go every time, every night and feed, you know. So you know, and as soon as they just bump into them once, then it's curtains and they're leaving a scent trail.

We were also seeing stoats on the tracking tunnels, which is a tool that DOC uses for monitoring pest levels in the environment. Basically, we're seeing loads of evidence of stoats all over the place and we did the 1080 operation and we stopped seeing any of that evidence. There was hardly anything around that. There was nothing on the tracking tunnels.

I think we did see one stoat on a camera that wasn't at nest, once. It's really hard for us to say, was that a stoat that managed to sneak through and it just didn't happen to bump into a toxic rat and it survived. Or maybe it had come back into the block because they can go for 70 kilometers.

They're you know, they're amazing travellers when they want to be. So we can't say exactly where that stoat came from. But what we could see was that very, very low numbers of stoats that were almost undetectable were still enough to be killing some of our Kiwi.

And so after the drop, we did see that after a really good promising start, we could see that some of our Kiwi would still– kiwi chicks, were still killed by stoats and that was super demoralizing.

You know, you want everything to be perfect. You want to do the best you can for the birds and you want it to be succeeding. But ultimately, as the season panned out, it was a real rollercoaster emotionally.

But we did actually see that it came to a positive conclusion in the end because we had some of those Kiwi chicks make it and enough to be growing that population.

And yet overall, basically we did do, I think, what we set out to do. And I think the other thing to remember is that, that year that that predator control operation happened was an unprecedented beech mast.

A beech mast as when the native beech trees in the forest produce extra high levels of seed. That means it's loads of food for rats and the rats go (up) – they spike and then there's loads of food for stoats in the form of rats and the stoats go (up) – they spike.

So the re-invasion pressure from outside of the predator control area would have been unusually high. There's going to be a lot of hungry stoats roaming around and they're going to be coming back into this area that doesn't have any kind of incumbent stoats, or very few incumbent stoats.

So that is a reason why we are still doing the monitoring program right now. So we've just done another 1080 operation three years later and we're going to see in what we consider a little bit more of a kind of, you know, normal state of play, what the result is. And I'm cautiously optimistic that we're actually going to see higher survival this time around.

But time will tell.

00;17;07;18 - 00;17;23;19

Erica

It's such a roller coaster like you have talked about, and you're going through it and you really care about conservation, that's why you're in this role. You must feel beaten down by the process at times. How do you and the team keep up that morale? Is it just an eyes on the prize focus thing?

00;17;23;28 - 00;18;10;04

Tim

That's exactly it. That's the goal that we've got to do. And we can't expect it to be easy the whole time. Someone said to me not too long ago, oh man, conservation is really two steps forward, one step back game, isn't it? And that is so true. You've got to stick at it and you've got to keep learning and improving. That wider kind of 1080 operation thing is supported by a really good network and loads of control and loads of thinking and loads of science both within and outside of DOC.

And we've just got to, we've got to learn from what we see and then we've got to use those lessons to get better. And yeah, you just got to keep at it because if you stop you might as well have never started because things will eventually just go back to how they were and how they were isn't good enough.

00;18;10;15 - 00;18;27;07

Erica

No, how they were is not good enough. Two steps forward, one step back seems like quite an investment, but one that is well worth it.

So the Kiwi that you're working with, tokoeka kiwi are a taonga a species to Ngāi Tahu. Does your work involved keeping iwi informed about what's happening with Kiwi?

00;18;27;11 - 00;20;02;14

Tim

Yes, that's right. So under Te Tiriti o Waitangi then DOC's got to protect Māori interests and quite rightly. Including taonga, in our big backyard. So yeah, our job is to kind of be caretakers and managers for this species and then try and preserve them. So as part of setting up this project we engaged with Papatipu rūnaka in Murihiku, Southland in Fiordland.

And I gave a little presentation to them about what they, what the project was about. And basically just got sort of broad support, away you go, sounds like good thing to do. And so that's what we do. We've had some names gifted to the chicks. The first chick of the study had a name gifted to it, and also once we had some chicks that we really thought were going to survive and had a had a shot, once that predator control had come, then that yeah, they had some names gifted to them by Ōraka Aparima, the local rūnaka as well.

In the interim, we kind of pretty quickly stopped naming the chicks before that Predator control because they didn't last very long and wasn't really worth it. But yeah, now there's some that carry some of those names that have been gifted.

And then I guess another sort of way that we try and engage in on an ongoing basis is when we handle Kiwi or if we're messed around at a nest or something, then sometimes they'll shed some feathers and we'll collect those and pass them on to Ōraka Aparima.

00;20;02;29 - 00;20;10;03

Erica

Oh, fantastic. Do kiwi feathers smell in the same way that a kākāpō– I thought it was musk, musky smell.

00;20;10;03 - 00;20;28;22

Tim

They have a very distinctive smell, which I find really difficult to put into words. It's a sort of– it is quite earthy, but with a little bit of a sort of sharper tang to it as well. Yeah, I don't know. I find it hard to liken to anything else. It's, yeah, smells like kiwi.

00;20;29;17 - 00;21;00;28

Erica

Something that a lot of people won't get to smell. So that's pretty exciting to hear it from you.

Let's talk about the green elephant in the room. Some people really don't like 1080. If anyone doesn't know, 1080 is a biodegradable toxin. It's aerially applied to control predator numbers. Most people who don't like it either don't understand how it works or they have no idea of the urgency, or the loss that we're facing without it, or they've received misinformation or disinformation.

Erica

What do you think about the often-vocal response about our use of this tool at DOC?

00;21;01;20 - 00;22;40;13

Tim

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but I don't share it. And some of the things that get said about our motivations are pretty off the wall. I don't get up in the morning excited to kill things, I get up in the morning excited to save species. And we have a choice to make. You can choose stoats or kiwi, you can choose rats or pekapeka.

You can't have both, you just can't. And doing nothing is a choice in itself. Everyone will fall differently on that scale. For me that choice is pretty easy. And so much work, so much work has gone into making sure that we use 1080 safely and appropriately. It's really tightly controlled, not just by DOC, but by several agencies.

I'm planning a 1080 operation myself at the moment for the first time, and the level of detail and careful work that has to go into it is pretty impressive. And you know, I don't just decide I'm going to do some 1080 and go out and do it. You know, I have to get permissions from various other agencies and all sorts.

And if what we're doing isn't managed carefully and safely and appropriately, we don't get that permission. So there's a lot of history to 1080, and that's part of the issue. You know, in the past, quite a long time ago now, it has been used in ways that wouldn't be acceptable now. And I think there's a bit of a kind of cultural legacy of that among people who are not supporters of 1080.

But I do quite often think it's interesting that this is the tool that gets all the hate because the rat poisons sold at the local hardware store are way nastier.

00;22;40;25 - 00;22;50;23

Erica

A good thing to take away. In terms of the goal that we've got, this crazy ambitious goal to be predator free by 2050. What can we learn from Shy Lake?

00;22;51;10 - 00;24;14;11

Tim

So Shy Lake has a pretty specific focus, which is about what we need to do for Kiwi in remote parts of Fiordland. And Predator Free 2050 is obviously a wider goal that's about protecting everything. One of the things that we are learning though, as part of that work, is we're working in the new environment. Historically, we haven't done a lot of work in western Fiordland except on some of our big special islands out there.

And this is the first 1080 operation that's taken place, sort of that far away from civilization, if you like. And we're learning quite a lot about the intricacies of the pest population dynamics out there in an environment where we haven't undertaken 1080 operations before, partly because it's so remote and therefore expensive. And what we're doing there isn't revolutionary.

It's about refining the work that's come before and expanding our vision and scale. I think it comes as a surprise to quite a lot of people that only 20% of Fiordland has predator control of any kind. We need to be really ambitious if we're going to scale that up to a predator free 2050 kind of level. Often people assume that basically the whole conservation estate is getting 1080 laid on it all the time.

That's not the case at all. We've got way more to do, but we are trending in the right direction.

00;24;14;21 - 00;24;20;28

Erica

That is really interesting. And I didn't actually know that about Fiordland, that it's only 20%.

Erica

What's your next conservation challenge?

00;24;21;09 - 00;24;45;15

Tim

Well, I'm currently planning a 1080 operation, and that's my first time doing that. So it's definitely a steep learning curve. It's definitely not as glamorous as cuddling kiwi chicks on camera, but this is what it's all about, hey, this is where we do our conservation. If we don't do this step, nothing happens. And that's where I can make the biggest difference. So I'm quite motivated to do it, actually.

00;24;45;15 - 00;25;05;29

Erica

Tim, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. I feel like you are trying to make the positive change that we all want to see in conservation for Aotearoa. I feel that there's a lot up against kiwi, their scent trail, the long lived, slow breeding, all of that but we've got you on our side so it's not going too badly. Thank you so much for being here.

00;25;07;05 - 00;25;16;21

Tim

Kia ora Erica. And of course, it's not just me. I think the future for kiwi is bright because people all over New Zealand want that to happen and where there’s a will, there’s a way.

00;25;17;03 - 00;26;13;11

Erica

Kia ora Tim.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you watch the Fiordland Kiwi Diaries. All three episodes are available now on the DOC YouTube. Episode one introduces you to the tokoeka monitoring project, episode two is about the 1080 drop itself and episode three is the long-awaited results with a rollercoaster of emotion right the way through.

Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Erica Wilkinson, and this has been the DOC Sounds of Science podcast. The show is available wherever you get your podcasts or you can stream it off our website, www.doc.govt.nz. The show is produced by Jayne Ramage with editing by Lucy Holyoake. If you enjoyed this episode, show us some love with a five-star rating.

00:00:05:10 - 00:00:19:07

[Erica]

Kia ora! I'm Erica Wilkinson and this is the DOC Sounds of Science podcast.

Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science.

00:00:21:14 - 00:00:56:27

Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s technical experts, scientists, rangers and the experts in between.

Today on the DOC Sounds of Science podcast, we have star of the Fiordland Kiwi Diaries, and conservation expert Tim Raemaekers.

Tim has a wealth of experience handling rare species, navigating remote Fiordland terrain and managing endangered species survival.

It is not an easy job and it's not always as fun as it sounds, but Tim's work stories are second to none, and the wins for him and his team will bring a tear to your eye. Kia ora Tim, thanks very much for coming on.

00:00:57:17 - 00:01:15:06

[Tim]

Kia ora Erica!

Tihei mauri ora.

Nō Koterana ahau

Ko Pentland Hills taku maunga

Ko Braid Burn taku awa

Ko Tim Raemaekers taku ingoa

He kaimahi ahau mō Te Papa Atawhai ki Te Anau

He Kaitiaki Kanorau Koiora taku mahi

Nō reira

Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa

00:01:15:17 - 00:01:20:21

[Erica]

Kia ora. Our last episode was with Chris Dodd. You used to work with him, right?

00:01:21:13 - 00:01:34:04

[Tim]

Well, he replaced me as manager of the Shy Lake Project. So I work with him in that I sit about a meter away and we chat about the project a bit and so on, but I haven't sort of directly worked with him heaps.

00:01:34:13 - 00:01:37:14

[Erica]

Okay. And what's your job now? What did you move on to?

00:01:37:14 - 00:02:08:18

[Tim]

I am what we call Project Lead for a couple of valleys in northern Fiordland, the Hollyford and the Cleddau. So it's a little bit less easily defined than that when I was running the kiwi project. But basically I'm sort of a point of contact and admin chap for the predator control and species monitoring that we do in those kind of special places in Northern Fiordland.

And what I'm doing at the moment is planning an aerial 1080 operation for the Hollyford.

00:02:09:07 - 00:02:14:02

[Erica]

Fantastic. I'm not hearing the kiwi vowels that I'm used to. Whereabouts are you from?

00:02:14:15 - 00:02:15:23

[Tim]

I hail from Edinburgh.

00:02:15:27 - 00:02:23:03

[Erica]

I love Edinburgh, my favourite city in the world. And how did you get to become a Fiordland Kiwi ranger?

00:02:23:11 - 00:03:01:07

[Tim]

So many moons ago, more than I care to admit, I was studying a zoology degree back in Scotland and they had a work placement program where you could go and find a work placement year. And I sort of had an inkling that it would be cool to go to New Zealand. I'd heard a little bit about some of the conservation work there and you know, it’s really famous as a place with good opportunities to do fun outdoor stuff, which is what I wanted to do.

[Tim]

So I managed to get on this scheme and hopped on the DOC website looking for opportunities. And so a volunteer opportunity to go and work as a kiwi ranger at Moehau Kiwi Sanctuary up in the top of the Coromandel Peninsula.

00:03:01:26 - 00:03:03:23

[Erica]

So the first thing you did was work with kiwi?

00:03:04:03 - 00:03:32:15

[Tim]

Yes. So you know, there was mowing lawns and checking traps and things like that as well. But, but yeah, because I was able to commit for a year, it takes a while to sort of skill up to become a kiwi ranger. But yeah, that's where I cut my teeth in conservation and got some really good skills and got to know some good people and yeah.

So yeah, it was pretty much straight off the bat I got to do that. But really it was because I was fortunate to be in a position that I could do it for quite a long time.

00:03:33:08 - 00:03:50:03

[Erica]

In regards to volunteering, so many people that I talk to start that way or look on the DOC website and there are lots of opportunities and ways for listeners to volunteer. It does take quite a lot of training and experience to learn to handle kiwi. You don't just start there, do you?

00:03:50:25 - 00:05:05:18

[Tim]

Yeah, that's correct. I think learning to handle kiwi or other native species is something that you probably shouldn't expect to jump straight into. You might have to work your way up to that a little bit, but there are lots of ways that people can get involved straight off the bat. So it takes an hour to learn to check traps, right--

It might take you longer to get really good at stomping around the bush, but it doesn't take long to kind of pick up the basics of what you need to do, whether that's with DOC or another outfit. And then there's increasingly loads of other ways that people can contribute. There's lots of people who are looking through footage from trail cameras in the field or doing data entry or analysis.

Lots of people have got really good kind of IT or media skills that they can bring to the party. And so, again, it obviously doesn't have to be with DOC. There's loads of other groups doing great work out there, so there's tons of ways to get involved. And I think there's something for everybody and for all amounts of time.

[Tim]

You know, I got to sort of go straight into kiwi work because I was lucky enough to be able to give it lots of time. That's not achievable for tons of people. But, you know, I'm also a member of a little local trapping group that takes about four days of my time a year, which is probably pretty achievable for most folk.

00:05:06:05 - 00:05:14:11

[Erica]

Awesome. Now, you mentioned that you were lucky. Can you think of a time when you just think, I can't believe this is my job? I'm the luckiest person in the world.

00:05:15:02 - 00:06:31:21

[Tim]

Yeah, I think my– well, lots of times, actually, there’s lots of times that I've been sitting on a mountain top having a cup of tea and looking around and thinking, wow, I can't believe that I get to do this. This is wonderful. And I think one time that really stood out to me was when I was – I was volunteering, actually.

I had had my first paid contract with DOC at that point. But I did a couple of weeks volunteering with the kākāpō recovery program on Whenua Hou, down off Rakiura. And my job was to hang out near a kākāpō nest at night and basically make sure that everything sort of went to plan and that the chick was staying healthy and getting fed as it should.

And I was– I had to go down to the nest when the mother was away, so that I wouldn't be disturbing her. But at one point, as I was sort of retreating, she kind of beat me to the punch and came back a little bit. And so I just sort of stood back and stood still and got my first ever view of a kākāpō, which was just a pretty priceless moment.

You know, this incredibly kind of vivid green and just so different and, you know, just very quiet, just creeping along. It was a very kind of what felt like a very intimate moment to me. And that was just like, oh, I'm living the dream here. You know, that's kind of where I wanted to be and here I am doing it, wow.

00:06:32:14 - 00:06:45:17

[Erica]

Wow. And such a humbling moment. I imagine, just going that's the thing we're saving. That's pretty cool.  Any particular memorable moments in the field other than that, perhaps to do with kiwi?

00:06:46:04 - 00:08:08:05

[Tim]

Yeah there’s a couple that stick out. There was one situation that I had at Shy Lake which was quite unexpected and a little bit strange where I was tracking this chick– our job there is to find out what happens to chicks. Do they survive? Do they not? So I got a little radio transmitter on. And I was tracking this chick.

And I found it in a place that I didn't really expect to find it, outside of its home territory. But as I was tracking it, I was getting a bit of interference on the little receiver that we use. And I thought, I think there's another bird around here somewhere. And when I actually found it, I was pleased to see that it was safe and sound in a little hole under a log.

But in there, there were some adults, but they weren't the parents of this kiwi. And it's actually quite a sad story. So these adults had had a chick of their own, that had been killed by a stoat and this little chick had obviously gone wandering off and sort of been adopted/kidnapped by these adults who obviously had a real strong drive to be parenting something and had found this thing and started parenting it.

So it was a situation that was probably, I would speculate, a bit unnatural, but just something I just never considered might happen with Kiwi, you know, it's something that can happen with other species but kiwi are really territorial and just little insights into the tiny little things that go on in their worlds that you wouldn’t normally know about.

00:08:08:15 - 00:08:12:21

[Erica]

Oh, that's pretty special. I feel like you might have more.

00:08:13:09 - 00:09:34:18

[Tim]

Well, another thing that's always a bit memorable is again at Shy Lake we were changing the transmitter on an adult male kiwi, which is something we do once a year. We handle them as little as possible, but the transmitter has a finite battery life. So you're going to give it a health check every year and give it a new transmitter.

And there we were. You sort of hold them kind of upside down on your lap and you've got the legs kind of held up a little bit, a bit like when you're changing a baby's nappy. And suddenly I saw that the cloaca (or bum hole) was kind of pulsating a little bit and we thought “Oh, no, I know what this means. ”

We tried to sort of get it away from us without, you know, just slinging it away and just an absolute fountain of liquid poo came out and just coated both of us and all our gear. We got all these little intricate pieces of monitoring gear that then just had to be just like completely cleaned up and stuff. I think we just had to sort of call that for the day and go back, get everything under the tap at the hut.

But for those who don't know, kiwi poo, really stinks. It's sort of earthy but really sharp and acrid at the same time. And the smell just doesn't really come out like my notebook or that notebook still smells of it. And that was three years ago, I think. But yeah, it was just one of those ones where you just had to stop and you just kind of start laughing.

00:09:34:18 - 00:09:43:17

[Erica]

I think I didn't know which way that story was going to go and that was brilliant. I feel like parents might find that one really relatable, perhaps.

00:09:43:17 - 00:09:44:07

[Tim]

Yeah, that's right.

00:09:44:29 - 00:09:49:03

[Erica]

[Tim], what's been the most unexpected thing you've ever encountered in the field?

00:09:49:22 - 00:11:17:14

[Tim]

I think one of the things that– it was just a little sort of side note to what I was doing, but once upon a time I was on Anchor Island working with Kākāpō Recovery Program, and I was just out the front of the hut, having a cup of tea and looking at the sea and the hills and feeling pretty serene.

[Tim]

And a toutouwai, a New Zealand Robin came up to say hi, which is a very common occurrence on Anchor Island because it's a pest free island and there’s birds everywhere and plenty of robins. I've never quite got to the bottom of whether there's thousands and thousands of robins or just one that follows you everywhere, but you can always see one.

Anyway, this one came up and there I was in my trusty crocs and I had a little scab on my ankle, I think, and he came up and he eyed it with his beady eye. You know how they turn their head sideways a little bit? And they look at it and they're like, “Oh, yep.” And he came in and he just gave it a little peck.

[Tim]

And then he gave it another little peck, I was like, oh that’s a bit sore. But you know, it’s a Robin, it’s a nice little interactive moment. I'll just let him do that. And then he just kept going until it started to bleed and he just kept going at it. And he's just drinking the blood. So I discovered a vampire toutouwai, which is not something I'd ever heard about before.

I actually got a little video, which I unfortunately have since lost. But yeah, that was– you know, you see nature docos with oxpecker sitting on the back of a buffalo or something and pecking away and you hear about it and I was like oh this is it here, right here, happening to me with a robin. It was weird.

00:11:18:05 - 00:11:39:17

[Erica]

I can safely say our native species are weird and wonderful.

Now do you have a conservation conversion fact? The kind of thing that you tell friends at barbecues to get conservation newbies hooked? Clinton Duffy in a recent episode told us about the epaulette shark, which can walk on land--a shark that can walk on land! Do you have something like that Tim?

00:11:39:17 - 00:12:45:18

[Tim]

Oh man, I need to look that one up, I haven’t heard about that. So in terms of the kind of work that I've been involved with, I'm always a little bit blown away by how long some of these native birds live. So Kiwi can live for up to 50 years, kākāpō at least 60 years, something that is not always appreciated as well.

But my favourite random nature fact, which has nothing to do with anything I've worked on, I think, is if you take a sponge, an underwater sponge, which many people will know, but not everyone realizes are actually animals, not plants or anything. And you force it through a sieve that separates it into all its little individual cells. Those cells will survive and they will kind of aggregate back together and make a new sponge, a new functioning sponge, which I thought was just absolutely nuts.

I'm showing my age here, but it always reminded me of– there's a scene in the movie Terminator 2 where there's this bad guy kind of robot thing and he gets frozen and then shattered into a million pieces, and then those pieces melt and they all go back together and he's back. He's the bad guy robot. And as soon as I heard it, I was like, oh it's just like that. But not evil.

00:12:45:21 - 00:12:55:06

[Erica]

Amazing. Yeah, that's the thing that you picture is like a horror movie with the bad guy coming back together. That's pretty cool about the sponge. I hope it doesn't hurt it. I don't know.

00:12:55:26 - 00:12:56:27

[Tim]

You’d have to ask the sponge.

00:12:57:05 - 00:13:18:06

[Erica]

I have to ask the sponge. I'll go and do that.

I talk to a lot of people who would love to work for DOC as a ranger and they want to know. The main things to focus on upskilling at. We talked about that a bit before. What would you say we should be telling them? Should they be getting good at hills and mountains or adaptability or conservation values? What would you say is the most (important thing) that they could focus on?

00:14:20:02 - 00:14:24:28

[Erica]

Tim, are there any instances where you had to use your backup plan’s, backup plan?

00:14:24:28 - 00:15:50:12

[Tim]

So hopefully, I mean, hopefully that doesn't come up too too often, we try and prepare well for our work. But something where we had to really come up with a plan on the fly that springs to mind was– this was a few years ago and I was on Anchor Island working with Kākāpō Recovery Program and we were doing health checks on kākāpō chicks at night.

So I was camped out near the nest, which is always a cool experience listening to the sounds of the night on a pest free island. And often the sound of the night is a whole bunch of rain falling on the tent. And that's what happened this time. So I'd done a health check on this chick and there's a little camera in the nest so you can kind of see what's going on.

And we had a bit of a weather bomb. It was very wet season in general, and it just rained and rained and rained and some of our kākāpō nests started flooding. And, you know, that's just that's going to be curtains for the chick if you don't intervene. So we had to barrel down there just in the absolute sluicing rain and do an emergency extraction of this kākāpō chick and take it back to the field base on the island for hand rearing, at least temporarily.

And you sort of chuck a wee plastic egg in the nest and hope that the mum will stick around. And so there's somewhere to put that chick back. And quite often that works, actually, they're really forgiving. But yeah, that was one of those things where you’re like, right? Kind of panic stations, you got to do something right now or it's too late.

00:15:50:18 - 00:16:00:14

[Erica]

Speaking of really remote areas, that’s where you work. Do you have a hack item or an essential thing that you take with you when you’re working in such remote places? ”

00:16:00:27 - 00:16:33:23

[Tim]

It's pretty bland and prosaic, but the thing that I always use these days when I go out in the field is a bum bag.

I've just got like on the front sitting on my tummy and it's just got my notebook and maybe my head torch if I'm doing Kiwi work looking into burrows and things all the time and receivers and like a little list of the channels for the kiwi or my trapping gear if I'm doing that. There's always something, you've always got equipment stuff and yeah, that's my thing and since I started using one I just never leave home without it really.

00:16:34:04 - 00:16:45:08

[Erica]

I don't think you get any complaints about bum bag territory. I have one. I can see the digital team all a big fans of this kind of thing used to make fun of my mum for it. But now I've got one, so..

00:16:45:10 - 00:16:46:26

[Tim]

So you've seen the light.

00:16:47:06 - 00:16:58:03

[Erica]

Sure have.

So in the course of your conservation career, there must have been a million different great places that you have worked in. What's the coolest place you've worked in and can you tell me about why?

00:16:58:14 - 00:18:29:09

[Tim]

Yeah, sure. There's a lot of parts of Fiordland which I just absolutely love and the scenery is incredible. And Shy Lake’s probably top of that tree. But for really, the coolest place that I feel like I've worked in would be several pest free islands that I worked on with the Kākāpō program, Whenua Hou, Anchor Island and a couple of visits up to Hauturu in the Hauraki Gulf.

And all of those places are just absolutely buzzing with life. They're all long term pest free islands and there's birds everywhere and there's other life, there’s sea life, and they're just so vibrant. And I also, you know, I lived there.

We were there for weeks at a time, and then we'd have two weeks off. And that was kind of my home for a few years. And you just really get to know that island and that environment and connect with it and sort of grow with it a little bit.

But for me, those pest free islands, it's something that I wish every New Zealander could experience because it's a vision of what we're trying to achieve, what we once had everywhere across Aotearoa and what it could be like again.

And yeah, I think it's just, you know, people come to those islands and I've lost count of the number of people that I've been with on those islands who've really considered it a landmark experience in their life to get to go there and experience that.

And yeah, that's what we're working towards.

00:18:29:09 - 00:18:41:15

[Erica]

It is, and it's such a good point. I feel like everyone in Aotearoa could go out and stand on little barrier island or stand somewhere and listen to the dawn chorus, it would just – everyone would be on board this predator free goal.

00:18:42:06 - 00:18:44:22

[Tim]

That's right.

00:18:44:22 - 00:19:07:00

[Erica]

Since Tim had so many brilliant stories, we decided to split his episode into two.

In part two we delve into the work behind the Fiordland Kiwi Diaries miniseries. Tim tells us all about the tokoeka kiwi monitoring programme, the rugged terrain, the gross, yet fascinating breeding cycle of stoats, and the emotional roller-coaster that the series captures.

You won’t want to miss it.

00:19:07:17 - 00:19:15:12

In the meantime, you can watch Tim in the Fiordland Kiwi Diaries on our YouTube channel.

If you haven’t seen it yet, here’s a little taster – see you next time!”

00:19:15:14 - 00:20:10:28

[Trailer transcript]

[Tim]

Kiwi can be incredibly sneaky and nimble.

[Doddy]

They often look like kind of a bumbling animal,

[Doddy]

but they can live in the harshest, most rugged environments.

[Tim]

It's hard not to choose favourites.

[Tim]

I really like Filibuster and Fortuna, they're almost always the first to nest for the season.

[Monty]

So there’s a stoat in the area, that doesn't bode well for the chicks survival.

[Tim]

Fiordland is a huge wilderness, but most of it doesn't have any protection or predator control happening in it.

[Tim]

It's just a little bit further up.

Oh no.

There's nothing in the nest. It’s empty.

[Tim]

When you can’t find a chick it is a concern.

Often it really only ends one way.

This is an opportunity to ramp up

[Tim]

the protection that we're giving to Tokoeka in Fiordland.

And that's why we're here and that's what my job is about.

[Tim]

So the real acid test will be how many of those chicks survive.

[Trailer ends]

00:20:11:05 - 00:20:42:03

[Erica]

Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Erika Wilkinson, and this has been the Sounds of Science podcast. The show is available wherever you get your podcasts or you can stream it off our website. www.doc.govt.nz. The show is produced by Jayne Ramage with editing by Lucy Holyoake. If you enjoyed this episode, show us some love with a five star rating.

[Erica]

Kia ora! I'm Erica Wilkinson and this is the DOC Sounds of Science podcast.

Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science.

Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s technical experts, scientists, rangers and the experts in between.

 

[Erica]

I've been looking forward to this one. This episode of The DOC Sounds of Science podcast is all about kiwi. I'd like to welcome Chris Dodd, DOC Ranger and Biodiversity Lead. Kia ora Chris!

 

[Doddy]

Kia ora Erica. Ko Chris Dodd tōku ingoa. Hi Erica, my name is Chris Dodd.

 

[Erica]

Hello. And do people call you Chris Dodd? Should I?

 

[Doddy]

I usually go by Doddy, call me Doddy. Yeah, I've been known as that since [I was] about six.

 

[Erica]

All right! So, Doddy has one of the coolest jobs on the planet. He's a kiwi ranger, and he works in some of the most beautiful parts of the country. So, Doddy, why don't you tell us about your job?

 

[Doddy]

I work for DOC as tokoeka kiwi ranger down here. I'm based in Te Anau, and a large part of my job is based down in Southern Fiordland at Wet Jacket Arm Peninsula.

 

[Erica]

Cool. And what kind of terrain is that usually?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah … it can be incredibly rugged. It's probably one of the most remote places in New Zealand and it ranges from above the treeline, about a thousand meters above sea level, down to sea level. It's pretty steep and rugged country. And a lot of that work is in a sub-alpine environment. So you've got some, yeah, really scrubby vegetation, leatherwood in particular is a big battle to just struggle through.

 

[Erica]

And are you out in the mountains in the sub-alpine area every day, or is there some desk work as well?

 

[Doddy]

There's a fair bit of desk work. We're out there around about every two weeks, we get out to do the field work and we're out there for around about three days.

 

[Erica]

Is that your favourite bit?

 

[Doddy]

The field work definitely is, yeah.

 

[Erica]

That makes sense! Even in winter?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm not a natural person in the office. I’d rather be out in the rain. Not too much rain, but the joy of bird work really is that you can't work with the birds and get them wet, as well as yourself. … I can hide away in the in the office when it's wet and miserable outside and then get to go out and play on the sunny days.

 

[Erica]

It sounds like you're the perfect kind of person to work at DOC. Now, those with sharp ears will be picking up a decidedly non-New Zealand accent. So where are you from and what brought you all the way over here?

 

[Doddy]

So yeah, I'm from Harlow in Essex in England, originally. Somewhere between London and Cambridge for those of you who don't know England that well.

I worked in conservation for about 15 years before I came out into New Zealand, mostly working on small islands [doing] seabird work and migratory bird work as well.

 

[Doddy]

A lot of that time was spent up in the in the Shetlands, which is off the top end of Scotland on the way to Norway. Yeah. Had a good 8 or so years up there.

 

[Erica]

What brought you over here?

 

[Doddy]

I've got quite a long history of coming to and fro from New Zealand. A lot of my dad's family came out here in the 50s and 60s and as a kid I came out here with my parents a couple of times to visit them and yeah, kind of fell in love with the place.

 

I've been a regular visitor here in the Northern Hemisphere winters... a summer in the Northern Hemisphere, followed by summer down here for a good few years before I actually moved down here about five years ago.

 

[Erica]

Brilliant, so you've been chasing the sun for years as well.

 

[Doddy]

Yeah. Yeah.

 

[Erica]

Nice way to do it. And you've worked extensively with North Island brown kiwi in Taranaki, right? Can you tell me about that?

 

[Doddy]

I was fortunate enough to get a kiwi ranger post at Taranaki Kōhanga Kiwi at Rotokare which is a joint project between the Taranaki Kiwi Trust and Rotokare scenic reserve. And the reserve itself is a kōhanga, so a nursery for kiwi to grow and then repopulate the rest of Taranaki.

 

[Doddy]

A large part of my job was to catch birds within the reserve towards the end of the season and help move them out to areas (that are) well trapped and well protected. So, for the past four seasons now they've been moving birds out to the main maunga [Taranaki maunga, mountain]. Also to the Kaitake Ranges, and another site just outside of Rotokare called the Tōtara Block, [a] privately owned site run by Forest and Bird.

 

[Erica]

Brilliant. So it sounds like you were running around at kind of a kiwi creche?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, of sorts. It's slightly different to a kiwi creche, as we kind of leave the birds to do it. They stay in there, the young chicks grow up to adults or sub-adults and once they're large enough, yeah we'll harvest the 20 or 30 birds a season and move those out to new sites.

 

[Erica]

And the idea with that is because a kiwi needs to get big enough to fight off predators. Is that the idea?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, when they're small, so below 1kg, they're really prone to predators and those pests would be stoats, ferrets as well. So once their above that 1kg they can protect themselves. [If] we give them that fighting chance to start off with, get them large enough and then set them free.

 

[Erica]

Send them on their way.

You must have every day as a memorable day when you're working around kiwi, I imagine. But do you have just one stand out? Do you have a most memorable day at work at Rotokare?

 

[Doddy]

It would probably be a week. We had an incredibly busy week a couple of years ago where we decided to remove 50 birds out of the reserve. It turns out if you have kiwi in a pest free environment they do really well and better than we were possibly expecting.

So we, we had actually more birds in the reserve than we thought we would have. So well over 250 birds at that stage, all from a founding population of 40 and that was all within six, seven years. It happened really quickly.

… The pure scale of moving 50 birds out of there. We'd go through and catch them with teams of dogs and then catch them again once they have had their health screening a couple of weeks later.

So just an incredibly busy time. And our manager, Simon Collins, passed away just the weekend before, so it was quite emotional time for the team and that was a huge effort and we caught all 50 birds, moved those to the new sites, to the to the Tōtara Block, to the main maunga and the Kaitake [range].

 

[Erica]

Wow, so you've worked with a few different types of kiwi? Could you talk us through that?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, so, the North Island Browns or the Western North Island Browns over at Taranaki, down here we have the Southern Fiordland tokoeka ,and I did just have a week down at Rakiura [Stewart Island] working on the Rakiura tokoeka down there as well.

 

[Erica]

So tokoeka are a taonga to Ngāi Tahu, and even their name is taonga. Is that right?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, that's correct. Tokoeka literally means ‘weka with a walking stick’ which if you, if you see them as they leave the burrow or just pottering around, it's really quite accurate. They're always probing and they do look like they're just pottering along using a walking stick.

 

[Erica]

And there are different versions of tokoeka, is that right?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah. So we kind of generally go by four geographically distinct forms of tokoeka. We have the Haast up in Haast, North and South Fiordland and then Rakiura as well.

 

[Erica]

Are all the tokoeka kiwi threatened?

 

[Doddy]

Yes they're all in trouble so– the Haast, the South and North Fiordland birds in particular are all threatened and there's quite little known about the Southern Fiordland tokoeka as well which is why, [for] our project, we're looking at those birds, that group, in particular.

 

[Erica]

Now I've heard you describe these birds with such passion that I felt like I was holding one—but I never have held one. And many New Zealanders haven't. And the only chance that we get is to like see them on screen or something like that. So we want to give our audience a taste of what being up close with a tokoeka is like.

So what [do they] look like up really close?

 

[Doddy]

I think the first thing that always strikes me when I've got one in hand is the legs. They really do look like dinosaur legs, they're really scaly, they're huge, big claws on the end of their toes as well.

 

[Doddy]

And the first thing I've really noticed with the tokoeka compared with the northern birds is they've got so much down, so they actually feel really soft and [have] so much feather. They obviously need it down here with the cold weather. … Just how fluffy they are … still surprises me. And as you go up here, again, they are quite big birds down here.

 

The females will be up to about 2.8-3 kgs. So they're big birds, they've got big, long bills, a good 120 mm or so. So just. Yeah. They just look like nothing else. No other bird that's around really.

 

[Erica]

That is so cool. And does their size make them less speedy? Are they clumsy?

 

[Doddy]

Um, a little bit of both. They can move with incredible speed when they want to. But they are also incredibly clumsy, especially the chicks. I've seen a couple of nests– took a couple of nest recordings this year where they‘ve just, the chicks have just been pottering around in front of the nest camera and then suddenly they just trip up and fall over and roll downhill and they've gone.

I've even seen an adult bird just kind of look up into the air and fall on its back and roll over and then quickly get up and run away. So yeah, they are very clumsy birds.

 

[Erica]

Oh, my gosh. And are the feathers– you say they are so many feathers– are they given to iwi, those feathers?

 

00:12:28:01 - 00:12:34:04

[Doddy]

Yeah. Yeah they certainly are. We keep hold of them here at the DOC office for them if they’re ever requested.

 

[Erica]

And what does a tokoeka– what does it smell like? You know they say kākāpō are like honey and kind of tree-ish. What's a tokoeka like?

 

[Doddy]

I’m going to use the easy answer and say they smell quite musty, which is every bird kind of you end up saying smells quite musty, but it's a really strong smell.

Their poo has quite a strong a smell of ammonia. Really strong. So once you've got your nose in [ie: once you’re familiar with the scent], you can kind of pick them up, even if you're just walking along the track.

And if there's been one go past in the past 10 minutes, quarter of an hour, you really get a waft. You kind of see why they're so prone to being caught by dogs or stoats, ferrets. If they smell that much, if I can smell them that easily, then a dog's going to pick them up from the miles away.

 

[Erica]

What would you say is the biggest threat to kiwi? We've heard about dogs and stoats. Is it both? Is that neither? Is it humans?

 

[Doddy]

It's probably both, to be honest. Certainly in this area [remote Fiordland] it will be stoats. In a lot of our national parks, we have no dogs allowed so that's a big help for the kiwi out here.

Stoats can breed incredibly quickly, and just find those kiwi chicks and also other birds. Really any other native birds, they’ll take.

 

[Doddy]

Dogs can be an issue up in the North Island especially, ferrets can be a really big problem. They'll also take adult birds which is a big issue.

 

[Erica]

And stoats are very good hunters aren't they? I've seen footage of, you know, one jumping into a rock wren nest from miles away. That's pretty difficult for our native species, would you say?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, they're real apex predators and they're just incredible at hunting. So they'll just happily stake out a nest until that chick's either hatched or big, even with some of the passerines so the rock wren or toutouwai, robins, they'll wait until the last day before they fledge and then go in and take them.

 

So the chick’s as big as it can possibly be, it's got as much meat on it as it can.

 

[Erica]

It’s that premeditated?!

 

[Doddy]

Yeah. They’re pretty clever.

 

[Erica]

So how often do stoats have young? How big a threat are they?

 

[Doddy]

Stoats can have up to 12 kits in a litter. So you usually have one litter a year. A kit is a young stoat, a baby stoat. And they're the most amazing– I don’t know if amazing is the right word—but the most interesting thing is that within a really short space of those kits being born, the male will go back into that nest, impregnate the mum and all of the female kits in there as well. So they're all … the moment those stoats leave the nest, they're ready to reproduce.

They can increase in number really rapidly.

 

[Erica]

How often do kiwi have young?

 

[Doddy]

So the tokoeka down here will have maybe two attempts a season, so they'll have one clutch with one egg around about October and then they might try again in December. Usually that second one is if they fail the first-time round. So we're kind of happy if we've got one chick a year from them.

 

[Erica]

Wow, that doesn't sound like a fair balance of stoats versus kiwi at all. That brings us back to your wonderful Save Our Iconic Kiwi work in Fiordland. Can you tell us a bit about what you're doing?

 

[Doddy]

We're monitoring a population of about 12 males. We're monitoring the males because they're the ones that actually sit on the egg, incubate the egg. So it gives us a good idea of when a bird is nesting. And when we're catching the chicks, we put a little tiny transmitter on them, which is about five grams in weight, so really light.

And then we monitor those from the time they've hatched, hopefully to the time they get to about 1 kg and are what we call stoat proof, big enough to defend themselves from stoats.

Certainly when we have stoats around, they’re usually eaten within about the first two weeks. My job is to monitor them and just record the survival rates of the chicks.

 

[Erica]

And the main place that you work is in Fiordland, in Shy Lake. So why Shy Lake?

 

[Doddy]

When they were looking for a good site to start this project, they looked at a number of sites and this produced a good number of Southern Fiordland tokoeka. I mean it's still quite a sparse population out there: we've got probably a bird every maybe 15-20 hectares. So it's still quite a sparse population, but it's kind of the best site we know of we can get to.

 

[Erica]

So what predator control is done in Shy Lake?

 

[Doddy]

So for the first three years we just had a clean slate. There was no predator control at all. We had monitored 34 birds, 34 chicks in that time, and not a single one of those chicks survived. We had stoats coming up on the cameras. I think it was something like an 80% sightings of stoats on the on the cameras, so really big numbers of pests out there.

We then did our first 1080 drop in 2020, the start of 2020, and we immediately started seeing positive results. We've got around about 20% (survival rate) averaged out on the past two years in that time.

This season, which is the third season since the drop, we've started to see pests coming back and stoats coming back and that survival rates crashed again.

We've currently got one surviving chick from this season that's from 12 chicks that we've monitored.

 

[Erica]

Those are small results, but they are good results. Achieving a 20% increase in two years might not sound huge, but it is enough to keep the population growing. And it's much better than the 0% survival rate for three years before using aerial 1080.

 

[Erica]

So how come in Shy Lake you need to use 1080 instead of trapping? Why wouldn't trapping work?

 

[Doddy]

The area is just so vast. It's a big landscape and really rugged terrain. And as I say, even our smallish site, which is about a thousand hectares in total, goes from 1000 meters above sea level down to sea level. And it's just it's too vast, it's too steep, the country is too rugged, there's too much thick vegetation, which is just really difficult to get through.

So, yeah, going out there, it would take three – potentially two weeks even to walk out there.

It's such a remote part of the country as well. It's just not feasible to trap.

 

[Erica]

Wow, that does not sound feasible. It also sounds very difficult to find kiwi chicks in that kind of terrain so well done you. And how do you – talk me through tracking a kiwi because that sounds detailed.

 

[Doddy]

Once we've got the transmitter on for the adult kiwis, it’s about a 25 gram transmitter strapped to their leg and this allows us to follow them by video telemetry. So you might see the aerials out a fair bit, that's attached to a receiver and it just sends us a nice constant beep. If it's a bird that's not incubating, it will be 30 beats a minute and it will tell us – also tells us quite a little bit of code so actually tells us loads of information really.

 

It tells us how active it's been for the past – each day of the past week. It will tell us if it is nesting when it started nesting. So we get some really useful information from that.

 

[Erica]

How do you tell which beep is which bird?

 

[Doddy]

They're all on a different channel, so we have a handy little receiver, and we just go through channel 0 to channel 99, depending on what channel the transmitters on.

 

[Erica]

And what do you do when you find them and do a check-up? What's the routine there?

 

[Doddy]

During the breeding season we’ll be checking to see if that nice fast 48 beats a minute, which means it's incubating. After about 30 or 40 days of the bird being on a nest we’ll sneak down and put a nest camera up by the nest burrow. And from there we can just check to see if there's any pests coming in.

So yeah, we may well see stoats. There’s a few native birds as well that come in. So we really often see titipounamu, riflemen of late, which is really nice to see. There's the occasional sneaky weka which will come in, maybe a kea as well. They'll come in and say hello and have a little nose and usually try and attack the camera and dismantle the camera.

[Laughter]

 

[Doddy]

But we usually have to kind of make sure they're well and truly held into place. The kea do like to play with the cameras. But yeah, once we've got the cameras up, once the chick has hatched, usually after about 75 days of incubation—it's a really long incubation time, about two and a half months, we'll go in and after about five– the chick will be about five days old, we’ll wait for the chick to come out of the nest and put a little tiny transmitter on the chick so we can monitor those.

[That] keeps us pretty busy over the summer. We're monitoring 12 males at the moment. We have monitored up to 16 in the past.

 

[Erica]

So how often do you go in to do this monitoring? It sounds like it takes so long to get there. Do you bring a tent to, you know, wait there and check if the chicks … what? … How does it work?

 

[Doddy]

We go in about once every two weeks. It can be a bit more often. It's really weather dependent as I said, we’re out in Fiordland and we get our fair share of rain out here. It's one of the wettest places in the world,.

We're often very dependent on the weather and just get in whenever we can really, but we will often go in for three days if possible, two nights.

We've got it pretty good out there actually. We've got a nice two bivys out there so we've got, we've even got a heater and yeah, bunk beds, and a decent little cooker. So it's not too bad over the nights. For some of the birds further away, we do camp if we're doing a night catch.

 

[Erica]

I mean it doesn't sound like the glamping that I would request, but you must be in a race against the weather sometimes.

 

[Doddy]

Yeah definitely the weather's – certainly in the spring – kind of life revolves around checking the forecasts and hoping, keeping your fingers crossed that you get a good little break. It's kind of crucial especially when the chicks are just hatching and you need to get in. You have kind of three or four days to get in while the chicks are still hanging around the nest.

 

And if you've got bad weather, then you lose the chick. It's wandered off and gone to a new place and you've got no hope of finding it.

 

[Erica]

My colleagues, Belle, Jayne and Lucy are making this work into a documentary style miniseries. And you’re in it! So what was it like being filmed for this?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, less painful than I thought it was going to be! No, it was really good. And again, we had to work around the weather. We had, I think the first few days that Belle and Lucy came down, the weather was just atrocious. So we kind of got stuck in Te Anau for a few days. But once we got out there, it went really well.

We managed to come across one of the chicks, well sub-adults now from last year. So one of the surviving birds that we saw monitoring and that weighed in at about 1.6 kgs, so that was really, really nice to see.

 

[Erica]

Good to get that stuff documented.

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's just nice to have some success. I think we even found a found a chick which – when you're going out, especially with a film crew, you’re never kind of sure what's going to happen.

 

[Erica]

Yeah.

 

[Doddy]

Birds being birds, they might have all left or be in a completely different place to where you hope they are. It’s always a relief to get something on film.

To be honest, I kind of forgot [Belle and Lucy] were there, which I think is a good thing!

 

[Erica]

That’s perfect!

 

[Doddy]

I get very conscious when you've got a camera straight in your face. But they’re really professional and just get on with their stuff.

I kind of felt for them really cause I think they were probably carrying more than I was for the trip. So lugging that stuff around, especially the walk back up from Shy Lake to where the bivvys are is a good four 400 metre climb and it's not a hill I like, I must admit.

So for them to just kind of scramble up there is yeah good on them really.

 

[Erica]

I can’t wait to see the behind the scenes stuff.

So you love conservation and it's very clear how passionate you are about it. Do you ever come across people that aren't so into it and you need like a conservation conversion fact, to kind of bring them in?

I have a colleague whose favourite thing to tell friends is that female pekapeka or bats, time their pregnancy so that it happens with their friends. That’s thanks to Jess Scrimgeour in episode 18.

But do you have a conservation conversion fact?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, I have quite a few, to be honest.

One early one would be, especially with kiwi, is that they have bone marrow like you and me but unlike any other bird is, [which] is a pretty good [fact]. So they've been wandering around the ground for so long, they've now got bone marrow. That's quite a good one.

One that still blows my mind is a black robin being down to one female in their entire population. And now there's about 300 birds out in the Chathams.

Then I've got a few good hihi facts as well.

 

[Doddy]

Is this a PG … yeah so hihi are the only bird known to mate in the missionary position. How about that one?

 

[Erica]

Face to face for example?!

 

[Doddy]

Yes. Yeah. So that's one that people don't forget. I've had a few people come back to me with that one and remind me that I've said that.

And the other one with [hihi], the males, their … gonads swell to a larger size than their brain during breeding season.

 

[Erica]

Wow! Nature is fascinating, I know people find that gross. I think it's amazing.

And what do you tell people that want to get involved with conservation, be it hihi or kiwi or anything?

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, if it's something you're passionate about, follow it and just keep going. I started life in conservation a little bit later, I suppose I was about 26 when I had my first job and it was something I just didn't think was achievable kind of before then, but I kind of stuck at it. I started volunteering at a few places and realised that actually there are jobs and volunteer positions out there.

 

And volunteering-wise you start doing anything that's out there. So in this country just get out trapping and helping out local trusts and things. You'll never be rich working in conservation, but it's certainly – I can't imagine doing anything else.

 

[Erica]

It's a passion, isn't it.

 

[Doddy]

Yeah, it's a passion and it's incredibly rewarding.

 

[Erica]

I cannot wait to see it!

Doddy, thank you so much for being here and spending your time with us away from trekking up mountains. I realize we've caught you on a day when you're not in the field, so we're very, very happy to have you here. I love learning about the whole part of the world that you're working in.

I feel pretty enamoured with all of the kiwi chicks that you've described. Thank you for being on today.

 

[Doddy]

Oh, thank you. It's been yeah, been great to be on and natter about kiwi and yeah, any time.

 

[Erica]

You can watch the Fiordland Kiwi Diaries exclusively on DOC’s YouTube. The first episode will be out on the 14th of June.

Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Erica Wilkinson, and this has been the DOC Sounds of Science podcast. The show is available wherever you get your podcasts or you can stream it off our website doc.govt.nz. This show is produced by Jayne Ramage with editing by Lucy Holyoake.

If you enjoyed this episode show us some love with a five-star rating.

Transcript for episode 23

00:00:00:11 - 00:00:37:02

[Erica]

Kia ora! I'm Erica Wilkinson and this is the DOC Sounds of Science podcast.

Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science.

Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s technical experts, scientists, rangers and the experts in between. Today's episode is with Laura Boren, one of our technical advisors in the marine space. Kia ora, Laura!

 

00:00:37:19 - 00:00:48:06

[Laura]

Kia ora Erica. Ko Laura Boren taku ingoa. Kei Te Papa Atawhai ahau e mahi ana.

Hi Erica. My name is Laura Boren and I work at the Department of Conservation.

 

00:00:49:06 - 00:01:01:18

[Erica]

Hailing all the way from the landlocked state of Nebraska, we have one of Aotearoa’s preeminent marine biologists. An unexpected journey not unlike some of her beloved fur seals, which have also been known to travel far and wide. Welcome, Laura.

 

00:01:02:09 - 00:01:03:09

[Laura]

Thank you for having me.

 

00:01:04:05 - 00:01:09:24

[Erica]

So, Laura, tell us a bit about your job. It sounds fascinating.

 

00:01:10:10 - 00:01:36:02

[Laura]

Well, I'm a science advisor in the Marine Bycatch and Threats team here at DOC. Essentially, it means that I provide advice on a range of different marine issues. My background and specialty is in marine mammals, in particular the pinnipeds, or what we more commonly know as fur seals and sea lions.

A little fun fact is that pinniped is Latin for finned foot. That's a good way to remember it. And yeah, so my background is with those guys. So I provide advice on fur seals.

They're kind of our main seal species that we have around New Zealand. But I also provide advice on the Sea Lion threat management plan and any sort of reactive issues that we have come up with leopard seals and elephant seals and the like.

 

00:02:03:16 - 00:02:05:18

[Erica]

Wow. And what did you study?

 

00:02:06:16 - 00:02:25:17

[Laura]

I studied marine biology. I came to New Zealand to study, so I did my bachelor's at the University of Auckland, and then I studied tourism impacts on New Zealand fur seals based out at the University of Canterbury. And I carried on to do my PhD because I loved them so much.

 

00:02:26:13 - 00:02:30:24

[Erica]

Understandable. And you've come over from America. So what brought you over here?

 

00:02:31:20 - 00:03:06:09

[Laura]

Well, I finished up high school in Colorado, actually. I come from a military background and moved around a lot and finished in Colorado, which was a landlocked state.

When I realized that marine biology was my— what I wanted to study and I was going to have to go out of state to do that. My parents, suggested also considering other countries as an option, and they had been on holiday to New Zealand in 1984, absolutely raved about it.

And so I said, ‘oh yeah, I'll take a look at New Zealand.’ Came here and yeah, haven't really looked back.

 

00:03:15:18 - 00:03:20:03

[Erica]

That's so brave. Oh my gosh. I can imagine that being quite a big step.

 

00:03:21:07 - 00:03:22:04

[Laura]

Definitely was.

 

00:03:23:04 - 00:03:38:07

[Erica]

So I've known your name since I started DOC and it's always been synonymous with seals. Any time we've got a seal question, you are our first stop.

So first, I want to ask the question we've been seeing a lot across social media at the moment. Are there more seals around lately?

 

00:03:39:04 - 00:04:09:20

[Laura]

Definitely, yes. Seals were— used to be very plentiful all around New Zealand, probably around one and a half to two million is the estimate. But they were hunted for their fur and also their meat and basically hunted to near extinction.

And their stronghold was essentially in the southern part of the South Island and the offshore islands. And since their protection they've been recolonising from South to the North.

And so we are definitely seeing more and definitely more around the North Island now. And of course the North Island is also where our biggest human population is. So we're seeing people are noticing the fact that we have more seals around.

 

00:04:26:04 - 00:04:35:19

[Erica]

So what's the strangest seal call you've ever gotten?

 

00:04:36:17 - 00:05:03:10

[Laura]

Oh, we've had loads. And yes, a few definitely pop into mind. We've had a couple. And for some reason these always happen in Tauranga, but we've had two seals who have let themselves into a house through a cat door or a dog door and have wound up in somebody's living room in Tauranga. Two separate occasions, several years apart.

But yes, that was definitely one of the strange ones. We've also had another one where a seal turned up on a farm, went up a stream, followed it all the way, wound up in on a farm, and the farmer notified us of the seal, but brought it back to the house to be able to show his children before releasing it again.

So, yes, we had a phone call about the fur seal pup that was taken home and wrapped up in a blanket and all cuddled up.

 

00:05:46:02 - 00:05:49:10

[Erica]

Is that not what we should be doing for seals? Should we say that?

 

00:05:49:17 - 00:06:10:04

[Laura]

Yes, definitely. It was definitely an interesting day for me. I spent a lot of time talking to various people and reporters because the story definitely hit the news. And the key thing for us, you know, their heart was in the right place. They meant well. Wanted to do the best thing for the seal pup.

But essentially, these guys are actually quite resilient. They're more resilient than what we often give them credit for. And just because they're young doesn't mean that they need to be taken in and looked after. In a lot of these situations, they'll be just fine if you leave them to their own devices, they’ll find their own way back.

And so the best thing in that situation would have been just to leave the seal be. Sure, give us a call, let us know and if there is a problem we can keep an eye on it and move it if it becomes a risk to the seal or anybody else.

 

00:06:49:16 - 00:07:03:24

[Erica]

Okay, that's good. That's good context to have. So seals do love a wander, but they will get themselves back to where they're going.

00:11:38:20 - 00:11:45:24

[Erica]

So as a member of the public, if I'm just going about my day and I see a seal somewhere that I'm not expecting to, what would you recommend I do?

 

00:11:47:07 - 00:12:15:09

[Laura]

The best thing to do is just view it from a distance to start off with and just have a look at it. If there is anything that you're really concerned about, like its body condition or it looks like there's an injury or it could be entangled in something, then that's something that we definitely want to know about. If you're not certain, then it's always best to just err on the side of caution and give us a call on 0800 DOC HOT.

By and large, if it's just resting, our action is likely going to be just to leave it be. But we will often, you know, depending on the circumstances, if it is, you know, on a farm or somewhere where you're really not expecting it to be and you're a bit concerned, we can set up a way either through members of the public or having a DOC officer check on the seal. We can have monitor it and see if the situation progresses to a stage where we need to intervene. But generally speaking, give it a couple of days and then I'll move on.

 

00:12:54:11 - 00:13:06:15

[Erica]

Okay. But that could be quite an important citizen science side of things, that’s helpful data for you to get when you don't know that I'm by the beach that you haven't seen. So should I take a photo and send it to you, or—?

 

00:13:06:15 - 00:13:39:10

[Laura]

Definitely, definitely. All of that information is really helpful. Photos will also help us make an assessment of the situation is— and check the body condition of the animal. Age – get an estimate, a rough estimate of age, and also whether it's male or female. We can we can tell a reasonable amount from a photo if it's taken well. And so the best thing to do is getting a photo of the entire body straight on.

Don't try to do any artistic angles. Just get a nice straight on photo of them and the whole body and pop something in for scale. Like your foot is a really easy thing to do. And that also helps us with the size estimation.

 

00:13:54:17 - 00:14:03:08

[Erica]

Okay, great call. No Instagram filters on these ones. And how come I've got to stay 20 meters away from seals? Is that the distance?

 

00:14:03:21 - 00:14:43:08

[Laura]

That is the distance that we recommend. It has come about through a series of experiments on approaching seals from different platforms, from on foot and kayak and boat. 20m is a good compromise that takes into account the fact that some seals will be more used to people than other seals. For example, in Kaikoura, where they get to see lots of visitors quite regularly, they'll be a little more used to people, whereas say Farewell Spit seals up there might not get to see as many seals— might not get to see as many people.

 

[Erica]

Yeah.

 

00:14:43:16 - 00:15:05:16

[Laura]

But what can happen? You know, a seal on its own is generally going to startle if you get too close to it and it will try to make a run for the sea. And you just don't want to be in the way of it. It's not going to try to be aggressive. It just wants to get out of a situation that it's nervous about.

If you're viewing a breeding colony and get a bit too close, then there's a real risk there of causing a stampede, if you get too close and animals can— the bigger adult animals can run over the pups. Or you also have situations where they're in a panic. So they're not necessarily looking at the best way down off these rocks. And so sometimes they can fall from a height which isn't nice.

 

00:15:35:06 - 00:16:00:18

[Erica]

The idea of causing and being responsible for a stampede is horrific. And I don't ever want to have that on my conscience. So I will remain 20 metres away from a breeding colony or as far as possible.

But what if— we were talking to Brent Bevan on the podcast and he talked about walking through tussock and then stepping on something squashy and then realizing he was at the wrong end of a— I think that one was a sea lion.

But what if I accidentally come across a fur seal and I'm closer? What do I do?

 

00:16:06:14 - 00:16:31:19

[Laura]

It does happen. So that's a really good question to ask. They’re so well camouflaged, especially in the rocks. The best thing that you can do is just back away quickly but calmly. You don't want to cause any more issues by trying to run away and tripping and hurting yourself. But if you can just back out of the situation quickly and calmly, that'll usually do it.

Remembering they're not after you, they're just trying to get away because they've been startled.

 

00:16:37:23 - 00:16:47:22

[Erica]

Sure. And you don't want to be between the seal and the ocean either.

 

[Laura]

Yeah.

 

[Erica]

What's the worst thing you've seen someone do in a coastal area?

 

00:25:08:23 - 00:25:47:05

[Laura]

The worst thing I've seen somebody do in a coastal area… probably, I think just not being aware and not keeping a look out. There are certain— the Kaikoura Peninsula, I've spent so much time there and seen so many cases of people almost stumbling upon a fur seal and just because they weren't expecting it there even though it was you know, it is where they normally are found but not expecting it exactly there.

The seal gets a fright, the people get a fright and they just all kind of run. That's quite a common sight. I've also seen people, you know, going for that selfie and trying to sit right next to a seal to get that selfie image and almost get bit in the process. So it's best in those situations when you see a seal, again, just going back to give it space.

 

They, you know, you can view them, enjoy them, spend hours watching them and you can still get your selfie from 20 meters away. And it's just giving them that space so that they don't freak out because they're only going to react badly if they feel cornered or threatened.

 

00:26:37:11 - 00:26:39:17

[Erica]

And it's their habitat. So you need to respect it.

 

00:26:40:03 - 00:26:41:23

[Laura]

Exactly.

 

00:27:01:17 - 00:27:12:24

[Erica]

Unfortunately, behaviour that's bad on beaches isn't rare. We would like it to be rare. You run a program called Lead the Way around dogs in public places. Can you tell me about that?

 

00:27:14:11 - 00:27:28:19

[Laura]

Yeah, Lead the Way is focusing on the impact that dogs can have on coastal wildlife. So that includes the marine mammals and shorebirds. It's about raising awareness with dog owners to be alert to what is in in your area, what wildlife can be on the beaches and how best to protect that wildlife while you're out walking your dog. So it's about sharing space.

 

00:27:44:03 - 00:27:51:24

[Erica]

Okay and if I've got, you know, Rufus on the beach, what are the kind of things that you tell people with dogs to do?

 

00:27:52:12 - 00:28:17:16

[Laura]

Well, the first and foremost thing is to know before you go. We always say to find out what the rules are. It's really common around New Zealand for people to travel with their pooches. And that's fantastic. And we are a relatively dog friendly place, but you just want to make sure you can take your dog somewhere before you get there and get caught out.

DOC's website has a really great function that lets you select for dog friendly walks. If you're looking at going to a new place. And the other thing is that dog rules are different all around the country, and so it's really important to check what they are before you go somewhere.

While we're primarily focusing on the safety of the wildlife, it is about the safety of your dog as well.

Being responsible and being aware to what all those dangers are is really good to help keep your dog safe. And those common-sense tips are going to go a long way for keeping our wildlife safe as well.

We don't often realise how cryptic a dotterel nest might be or an oyster catcher nest and, you know, a dog just being a dog and sniffing around and exploring could inadvertently crush an egg or scare an adult off a nest. And so it's just really important to be alert. And if you see something on the beach, call your dog back and pop them on lead and walk past.

 

00:30:09:23 - 00:30:32:09

[Erica]

And just so we're all aware what is at stake, if dogs aren't on a lead when they should be?

 

00:30:32:09 - 00:30:55:14

[Laura]

A lot of things could happen if they're not on a lead. And you know, I guess there's a story that I can think of that kind of covers off two different points, actually, because my dog is a reactive dog. So that means he doesn't really like approaches from strange dogs. It makes him nervous and he might lash out.

 

00:30:55:24 - 00:31:26:07

[Laura]

So he's got an orange Lead the Way lead, which is a caution and signals to others that, you know, you should ask first before approaching. And my dog's name is Mac and I was walking him out at Red Rocks one day and it was the first time I was ever taking him to Red Rocks. So I did all this research online to try to find out what the rules are.

Is he even allowed to go there? Does he need to be on a lead? And yes, the answer is dogs are allowed, but they should be on a lead. So I did the entire walk with him on lead, saw one other dog owner with their dog on lead that day. There were a number of other dogs that were off lead.

And as we were walking back to the car, there was a dog that was following us. And because of Mac being reactive, I was doing my best to kind of keep him safe and away from this other dog. And the owner was having a chat with her friend and not paying any attention to her dog. And in the end, after a while I heard these screams calling her dog back to her.

And I looked over and I saw that her dog was rolling in a rotten seal carcass. So I was like, okay, well, hopefully next time she's out walking her dog, hopefully she'll be a lot more present and paying attention to what her dog's doing to avoid that smell of seal in the car afterwards.

 

00:32:38:04 - 00:32:44:09

[Erica]

What a wonderful way to learn. I bet she never forgot that afterwards.

 

00:32:45:04 - 00:32:56:18

[Laura]

I'm sure not. I know I've had to wash some yucky smells off my dog, and I cannot imagine how long it would take to get seal out of Mac.

 

00:32:56:18 - 00:33:10:06

[Erica]

So you’ve already told us about so many different wonderful work stories. Can you tell me about one of your strangest days at work?

 

00:33:11:05 - 00:33:34:12

[Laura]

Oh, yes. I had a very memorable experience. One time I was working out of the Kāpiti district office and one of the Rangers there on call had received a call about going to see a seal up the coast, and he asked if I wanted to join, and I said, sure, why not? That would be fantastic to see another seal.

And we hopped in the car and went up the coast. And when we arrived, the situation, when it had initially been called in was that there was a van there and that a seal had crawled up under the van overnight and fallen asleep under the van. Now, the people had woken up, had breakfast, and they wanted to carry on, but were nervous because there's a seal sleeping under their van.

And so we arrived on site. The seal had moved out from underneath the van, but was just a meter or so away from it. And the couple had placed crystals around the seal. They were really concerned for the health of the seal and yeah, they were just really, really worried about it and wanted us to do something.

And so we spent a lot of time just chatting with them, explaining that the seal was perfectly fine. He was a really good sized male, subadult male, good body condition, no obvious injuries.

And, you know, their concern was whether it was he appeared lethargic because he was sleeping and that and so we just had to explain, you know, these guys spend a lot of time at sea foraging and then they come ashore rest.

So, yes, a lot of the times when we do see them ashore, they are resting and that's perfectly normal. And he'll just wander off, go back to the beach when he's ready. And sure enough, as we were sitting there chatting, he wandered off back down to the sea and swam away.

 

00:35:20:00 - 00:35:27:10

[Erica]

That is quite a strange day at work. And it can't all be so light and rewarding. And what are some of the challenging times you've faced in this job?

 

00:35:50:16 - 00:36:32:07

[Laura]

Probably some of the hardest times were at the Rena wildlife response for the oil spill. And there were a couple of seals that were brought in to the oiled wildlife facility, and that was just really tough. I think it was about five seals that came in over a couple of week period. And it was unfortunate because the spill, the quantum of oil that was in the water was having a huge impact on the birds and penguins.

And those were the wildlife most afflicted. The fur seals and other marine mammals were actually not very impacted by the oil spill. But there was a lot of concern. And so people would see a wet seal and think it's oiled or see it grooming and think it needs to be cleaned and cared for. And so we had some animals come into the facility that were actually perfectly fine.

One animal had been— he wasn't actually brought in because of fear of being oiled, but people were hand-feeding it on the beach and was— it got to point where he was kind of begging from people. And so they brought it into the facility. And we could see he was just so used to people as you walked past the enclosures that the seals were kept in, and he was just constantly asking for food and we ended up making arrangements for him and this one other seal to be to be released.

We asked for we had some staff there who were going back to the West Coast and because the oil spill was on the East Coast and fur seals, you know, these guys were old enough that you could relocate them. It didn't matter if it was away from where they had originally been born. So it worked out.

The other seal in that situation— it was a really sad one, and I'm so pleased that we were able to get him released because if you can say that a seal is depressed, that that seal was. He came in and, had a whole lot of fight and spunk as soon as he was brought into the facility. But then once he was checked by the vets and then put in the enclosure, his whole demeanour just changed.

And because of the fact that these guys can habituate so easily, we didn't want them being held for long periods of time because then it would make it harder for them to reintegrate into the wild. So luckily, we got we got those two taken over to the West Coast and rereleased.

 

00:39:09:09 - 00:39:22:15

[Erica]

That's a wonderful end to those stories and that— I just want to remark on the hand feeding idea, like you can imagine how cute that is for a selfie. And then the knock on effects of that. That's horrific.

 

00:39:22:15 - 00:39:53:07

[Laura]

Exactly. People, you know, they're doing that coming from a good place and thinking that it's cute or it needs help. But when that, you know, when it's a young animal that might look cute, but if they become accustomed to handouts or even need it to survive, and then when they're a fully grown adult, then that puts a whole different health and safety risk spin on it.

 

And the outcome in the end is not good for the wild animal.

 

00:39:58:08 - 00:40:27:19

[Erica]

I think that is such a good point that we all do care and all of these things are coming from the same place they're putting, you know, finding a seal on a farm and wanting to put in a blanket and all of that. All of that is good meaning behind it. We just need to make sure we're all educated correctly so that our caring isn't actually impacting the species in a negative way and being traumatic for it in a fluffy blanket.

Working in conservation is so full of challenges that it's important to celebrate the wins. Tell me about a time that you had a really successful outcome and kind of is the reason you do your job.

 

00:40:42:12 - 00:41:34:16

[Laura]

Thankfully, I have lots of wonderful moments where I can say I really love what I do, but there's a particular story that really stands out for me in the last year and a bit that stems from sea lions but incorporates fur seals as well. So switching over to New Zealand sea lions, the bulk of the population is on the Auckland Islands, but there's another population or breeding site on the on Campbell Island. And Campbell Island is at the very extremes of their range and it's really stormy inclement island for these guys to live on and the population there has faced really high levels of pup mortality over the years.

Initially it was from pups falling into what we call terrain traps. So it could be mud pools or just steep sided creeks and that they then can't get out of. But in— there were a couple of seasons in a row where before that started to even happen, we were having high levels of pups dying, presumably because of exposure.

Big storms would come through and because the main colony at Davis Point is on kind of a rock platform with not a lot of cover or protection. They were just sitting exposed to the elements. So as a result of the high level of pup mortality, we had— it got to around 80% in one year in particular at the Davis Point colony, which is insanely high.

So embarked on an engineering challenge with Fulton Hogan and Auckland Zoo. And the challenge was to design a pup shelter. And Auckland Zoo came up with a design that we went further with and they designed essentially an A-frame that— it needed to meet a number of specifications for us. So it needed to be able to let in a certain amount of pups.

It had to be strong and durable to withstand the weather on Campbell Island. It had to be able to handle if an adult male sea lion bumped into it or tried to climb over it, and also be easy to open up or clean out if needed. So we progressed with this design and once it was built, Auckland Zoo did a few tests, firstly like dropping 400 kilos of weight on top of it to see if it would withstand that. And it met all of those requirements, but then we needed to actually test it in the in the field and see if pups would use it. The problem that we have here is the fact that the New Zealand sea lion pups around Otago are not colonial breeding like they are at Davis Point, so they breed dispersed.

So there might be a beach that has a couple of females who have pupped on that beach and then there might be one in a different location. So they're spread out. And the other thing is that summer in Dunedin is probably a lot nicer than summer on Campbell Island. So by the time we would have bad weather and— which would make the pups want to use it, or the pups were creching in higher numbers, they were probably going to be too big to actually access the shelters.

So in the end we decided to trial them with fur seal pups. So we could do this in winter at a colony. And in winter the fur seal pups are going to be approximately the same size as a sea lion pup in January. So we did a trial and it was absolutely fantastic. We worked with Auckland Zoo as well as the landowners at Matakitaki-a-kupe, Cape Palliser on the south coast of the North Island.

And so we had members of Ngāti Hinewaka bless the site, before we started building the pod on the site. And it was just a fantastic experience. Everybody working together, we put the shelter up. We were able to test it over the course of a week. Thankfully, a massive storm blew through and the first seal pups decided to use the shelter.

We were a little bit nervous going into it, certainly. Fur seal colonies have natural shelter, they've got rock formations. And also this one in particular also has coprosma bushes around it. So I was definitely a bit nervous about, well, we have competing shelter in the area. Are they going to use a manmade shelter?

And the design of this one allowed for having a camera on the inside, that was motion sensor triggered. And when we caught some of the images and first saw pups going into the shelter, it was just amazing to see that. The interesting thing was behavioural difference between the two species means that fur seals are a bit more territorial about their space.

So if one pup went into the shelter, it didn't let another one come in with it. So it had a nice cushy bedroom for the night. If sea lions were, hoping, given the way that they pile up with other and that that it would be a different scenario and that more sea lion pups would be welcome in the shelter for that case.

So next step we're looking for an opportunity to get the shelters to Campbell Island to see if we can actually test them with the species they're designed for.

 

00:47:28:17 - 00:47:34:18

[Erica]

What a fantastic conservation story, was that just like a eureka moment when you saw them on the trail camera going in?

 

00:47:35:22 - 00:48:04:05

[Laura]

It was awesome. Everybody was so excited. There was so much really positive energy going into the whole project and to see everyone's hard work and just the excitement that they used it. We didn't have to, you know, use any attractant or anything to try to get them to go into it. They just— their natural exploratory nature meant that they checked it and went in.

 

00:48:04:20 - 00:48:16:03

[Erica]

And how wonderful as well that you had a challenge to solve and you went at it with all of the partners as well, Fulton Hogan and Auckland Zoo and everyone came together.

 

00:48:16:20 - 00:48:33:14

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah, definitely a highlight of my job or one of the things that I enjoy the most about it is collaboration, working with others to solve a problem and using lots of different skill sets is the best way to go.

 

00:48:33:14 - 00:48:56:18

[Erica]

That's the way we're going to save the world. Do you have what we've come to call a conservation conversion fact? This is the kind of thing that you tell people at barbecues to sort of get them started in conservation. I was just telling our producer one before who I don't think had heard that bats can take 80% of their weight by their nipples.

So they carry their children around like that, which I think is fascinating. Other people's faces proved otherwise.

 

00:49:05:06 - 00:49:53:07

[Laura]

That is a pretty amazing one. With fur seals and sea lions as well, they've got a really interesting lactation and gestation period. So when a female comes ashore and gives birth, she has her pup and about a week later she actually remates with the male holding the territory and then she'll start to alternate between going to sea to feed and coming back onshore to nurse her pup.

The interesting thing is that the egg doesn't implant straight away. It stays in stasis and then about three months later it will actually implant and her new fetus will start developing. So their gestation period is similar to humans at nine months, even though she's re-mated a week after, or a week to ten days after giving birth to the last pup.

But what makes it really amazing is the fact that as she's going through this and because the lactation length is approximately ten months that means that for most of that year she's eating for three. She's having to eat to keep herself fit enough. And also to feed her pup on shore and her growing fetus. So they're pretty impressive females.

 

00:50:51:08 - 00:50:57:12

[Erica]

Wow. And she kind of almost hit pause on her pregnancy. That is amazing.

 

00:50:58:02 - 00:51:31:14

[Laura]

And that also is why, you know, the energy involved in lactation is so intense. That's why that it's really rare that you'll see a female letting another pup suckle. This is a difference between fur seals and sea lions. Sea lions will let other pups suckle, but a fur seal? Nope. They will definitely chase away a pup that is not theirs.

Pups will definitely try it on. It's what we call milk stealing. And if they're— if a pup’s mother is out at sea feeding, you might see them wandering through the colony trying to look for a sleeping female that they can sneak up and steal some milk from. And sometimes they're successful. But if they wake that female up, they're going to get chased away.

 

00:51:57:16 - 00:52:00:13

[Erica]

That is brilliant.

 

00:52:02:04 - 00:52:22:14

[Laura]

I always recommend if you're watching, you know, we have lots of fur seal breeding colonies that have really good lookouts and you can just stand from up above and watch them. And if you watch for some of these behaviours and just see what a pup is doing, going through the colony, you can see some pretty interesting stuff.

 

00:52:23:04 - 00:52:36:16

[Erica]

And now I know what to look for as well. So I’ll be like, I know he's being chased away, milk stealer! Sneaky.

So, Laura, let's recap the top three things that people need to remember in marine areas.

 

00:54:52:08 - 00:55:15:15

[Laura]

The key thing is really just to be aware and be present. Be aware that, you know, we've got this amazing wildlife in Aotearoa and yes, it can be right in our very own backyard. I can walk down the hill and go and see spoonbills and oystercatchers and yeah, possibly even a fur seal could rock up there.

So just be aware that there could be wildlife out there and how to react around it, give it space and also being present, you know, if you're out walking your dog or if you're just out walking by yourself, hopefully you're out in nature to enjoy nature. So be present and enjoy that. You'll get more out of it and hopefully also spot the wildlife with enough advanced warning to try to weasel your way around.

Laura, I cannot thank you enough for turning up today and telling us so much. I have learned everything there is to know about dog on the beach etiquette, I know what to do if I see a seal in an unexpected area, and how helpful I can be through data as a citizen scientist.

I feel like everyone's got their heart's in the right place and we just need the correct education on how to care. So thank you so much for joining us to tell us all about the marine animals today. We're really glad that you chose New Zealand for your adventure.

 

[Laura]

Thank you.

Thank you for listening. I'm your host, Erika Wilkinson, and this has been the DOC Sounds of Science podcast. The show is available wherever you get your podcasts or you can stream it off our website doc.govt.nz. This show is produced by Jayne Ramage with editing by Lucy Holyoake.

If you enjoyed this episode show us some love with a five star rating.

Transcript for episode 22

[Erica]
Kia ora. I'm [Erica] Wilkinson, New Zealand's Acting Threatened Species Ambassador. And this is the DOC Sounds of Science Podcast.

[Erica]
Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s technical experts, scientists, rangers and the experts in between. Kia ora! Ko [Erica] Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science.

[Erica]
Today we're talking to Hana Harris who is a biodiversity ranger in the beautiful Northland Region. Kia ora Hana.

[Hana]
Kia ora. Ko Hana Harris taku ingoa. He kaimahi ahau ki Te Papa Atawhai. Ki te rohe o te Pēwhairangi. Ko tokuturanga he kaitiaki kauri. So kia ora, yeah I'm Hana, I'm a biodiversity ranger and I mainly work in kauri protection up here in the beautiful Bay of Islands district.

[Erica]
Awesome. Hana is used to explaining kauri dieback to our international tourists, to school children and to members of her local community and now it's our turn! Hana is passionate about protecting the species for future generations and is going to get us excited about this mahi too. So welcome Hana.

[Hana]
Sweet, thank you for having me.

[Erica]
So tell us about what you do at DOC.

[Hana]
So I've been with DOC for the past three and a half years. I started as a summer ranger and eventually yeah kind of hung around and I then got a job as the kauri protection ranger up here and basically did everything from community engagement through to soil sampling and most recently I've just hopped over to a biodiversity job.

[Erica]
Amazing. Tell me about where you're based, it sounds like it's the most beautiful place in the world.

[Hana]
Yep I have to agree. So I'm based up here in the Bay of Islands and so it's the eastern side of Northland. And basically it stretches from Taupō Bay down through to Kawakawa. We have obviously our beautiful marine environment and then over to the west a bit we have the amazing Puketi and Omahuta forest which is roughly 21,000 hectares of indigenous forest and yeah full of kauri.

[Erica]
Ah, sounds like paradise. So you say that you came over summer to a full-time role … and now how long have you been with DOC? 

[Hana]
Ah three and a half years. So, yeah, I started as a summer ranger in the summer of 2018-2019 …  just basically got to work out over in the islands and a bit on tracks and I looked after a campground in Puketi forest which was awesome. Pre-COVID so there was a lot of people around.

[Erica] 
Awesome. And what does a big day entail for you now?

[Hana] 
I would say any big day is a day out in the bush. So we spent a bit of time especially in Puketi and Omahuta doing quite a lot of work around kauri. We're jumping into pig monitoring at the moment so just trying to get an idea of how many pigs are in the forest. But basically anywhere, you know, six plus hours on foot carrying around your packs. Yeah, that's probably a big day for me.

[Erica]  
Sounds like quite a big day, yeah! So, Hana, tell us about the process around possum monitoring.

[Hana] 
…Possum monitoring is basically where there's been a lot of possum control in an area—so recently we did some possum monitoring out in Kowhairoa or which is in the Whangaroa Harbour. And the local hapū out there have been doing really intensive possum control for the past you know good few years and so every year we go out and do the monitoring for them.

And basically we head out in the morning on a boat and it takes about 15 minutes to get out there. And once we're out there we're given basically two hundred meter lines and we get about 3 lines each to do.

And you have a hip chain that's attached around your waist as well as a bum bag that has wax tags in it and some flagging tape and a vivid and your hip chain has a pedometer which measures your steps so you know that you're doing two hundred meters exact. And basically, you walk to the start of a line and in the hip chain it's got a bit of cotton in and you tie the cotton off to a tree, you grab your compass and you point in the right direction and you basically walk straight for two hundred meters until you finish your line.

And every twenty meters you're chucking up a wax tag which has got a scent of peanut butter on it and the idea is that if there's possums in the area, they'll come along and have a little gnaw at it. Um and there's about 10 lines across that peninsula and so by the end of it, it gives us a percentage of how many possums are in that area.

[Erica]
And are there possums at the moment in that area, or is it just making sure they don't come back?

[Hana] 
...We had a really good result this time, so they got 0% of possums out there which is probably a first in Northland. So that was a huge bit of a celebration for us and for them. But it was pretty awesome. It's always nice to deliver that kind of news to hapū.

[Erica]
That's great and you're sure that they don't just not like peanut butter anymore?    

[Hana] 
Ah I'm pretty sure they like peanut butter. Yeah.

[Erica]
So, tell me about what drew you to conservation.

[Hana] 
My father worked for DOC for about 15 years growing up and so I guess conservation was always a thing that was quite natural for me to be interested in.

I remember going to tonnes of events with him growing up and I just have always – I was basically raised in the bush as a kid. I'm from Puketi forest which is now the forest that I work in. Yeah you know, spent our summers in the rivers and walking around barefoot in the bush and so it kind of just carries with you.

I guess as a teenager I kind of took a step back and then yeah in my early twenties I've rekindled this love of conservation and just being outdoors.

[Erica]
Ah I mean what a childhood and what a way to set it off. That's incredible. So Hana did you study conservation or in a field like that?

[Hana]
Yeah so back in 2018 it was, I did a course in environmental management and I loved it. I mean you know obviously it's something that I'm interested in, but I struggled a bit in the classroom.

I'm quite a hands-on kind of learner and so I walked in one day and chucked in my CV at the local DOC office and just asked for anything, you know any sort of job that was going and thankfully there was a summer ranger job and um of course they knew dad because a lot of the people that I work with have known me since I was born so. Yeah it was just an opportunity there for me to grab and I jumped at it.

[Erica]
Ah that's so cool. Now tell me about your kauri dieback work and we'll start simple. So what is kauri and what is kauri dieback?

[Hana] 
Yeah so I guess kauri is probably New Zealand's most iconic tree at least up here in Northland we think it is. And it's scientific name is agathis australis and then if you turn to kauri dieback, it's scientific name is phytophthora agathadicida.

So that ‘agatha’ is kind of you know talking back to its scientific name. And phytophthora is Latin for plant destroyer so straight to the point “plant destroyer” that's what it does and there's lots of phytophthoras over around the world. But um. This one just attacks kauri—that we know of.

..Going back to Māori relationship with kauri, it's always been one of those cornerstone species. You know it was used as waka before settlers came to New Zealand and then once settlers arrived, of course there was a whole lot of logging that took place especially up here in Northland and we saw a lot of kauri forest really get um well destroyed I guess and you can still see those – the remains of those days with old logging roads and some of the scars on the trees and things like that.

But kauri [disease] itself: basically what it is, is it's a water mould. It's spread through the movement of soil so it can be – it’s microscopic, you can't see it. Basically you could be walking through the bush, have a bit of dirt on your foot or on your boot and that's got the disease on it.

It comes into contact with kauri roots and as soon as it does it releases spores and these spores basically attack the root system and it stops the tree's ability of taking nutrients from the soil up through the tree. Ah so basically it like sucks the tree dry.

That's why it's called dieback and you'll see some of the symptoms um bleeding around the base so it would be in a bit of an upside-down U shape and it will come all the way to the base of the tree. You'll see a bit of the canopy dieback, so the leaves might start yellowing a little bit and um eventually the leaves will drop off. And over time the um the tree will die sadly and there's no cure for it, which is really sad. I mean there's things happening you know trials happening. But um yeah basically once a tree's infected, it's … pretty sad.

And on that note as well, you know the term kauri dieback, we don't –actually, we're trying to steer away from using that word because it's got quite a negative you know feel about it. And we're trying to change people's mindset from kauri dieback to kauri protection or kauri ora, kauri wellbeing. To kaitiaki kauri. More of a positive spin I guess.

[Erica]
And whereabouts is it? Is it just in Northland? Is it further?

[Hana]
Basically um anywhere where there's kauri so the range for kauri is basically from the Waikato north and it's found – I mean if you look at the Waitakere ranges – it’s found everywhere through there.

We've got one known infected site in the middle of Puketi forest. Which is super strange that it's right in the middle and it hasn't been found anywhere else. Um yeah over in Waipoua Forest as well. They've got it pretty bad over there. And it's showing up in farmlands and things like that. I guess yeah these trees are so vulnerable you know.

You've got trucks going through or people walking through or cattle or pigs or whatever, that can spread this disease and um yeah. Bit scary.

[Erica]
…Very scary and it sounds really critical that we can stop it. So what kind of work is happening right now to help manage this problem?

[Hana] 
Yeah I mean there's a lot of work and it's actually quite a busy space, the kauri space.

Obviously one of the main things that's really awesome that's happening is a lot of advocacy work. So we've got a really awesome Jobs for Nature project up here in our district called Kaitiaki Kauri and they were set up specifically for advocacy work.

So they're basically getting out there on the tracks talking with the public and speaking to marae and speaking to schools. I think that's the main [thing] is all the advocacy stuff.

And then of course we've got a whole lot of soil sampling. So back in um 2017 and 2018 they did a survey, an aerial survey of all kauri lands um in New Zealand and basically picked up a whole lot of trees, kauri trees that were dead or they looked a little bit sick and they would give us those coordinates and we would walk in with our GPSs.

And um soil sample those trees. And so yeah from all of that sampling, we got some good results and some not so good results.

[Erica]
So I think what's terrifying about this is that you can't see it. So because it's microscopic, you know, me walking through the bush could unknowingly bring it with me and be affecting different areas and I'd be devastated if that was the case. So we need to see ourselves in the solution, do you think?

[Hana] 
Oh yeah for sure. I mean the best thing that we could do is educate people right? And      especially if you're if you're showing up to the forests, we have this saying that is arrive clean, leave clean. You know? It's as simple as that. If you're showing up to the bush and you see a hygiene station there just use it. It takes 5 minutes if that. Or even better clean your stuff at home.

We've just upgraded a whole lot of tracks in our district to prevent you know people standing on kauri roots and so yeah I guess stick to open tracks. Don't go off the track. Yeah and I guess the hygiene stations are basically a boot cleaning station.

Where you go through and you can have a seat – there’s a little seat there. You can sit down and just scrub your boots and it's got sterigene which is disinfectant like a hospital grade disinfectant and that will actually kill off the spores of the of the disease. 

[Erica]
So bottom line is arrive clean and leave clean is the most important thing.

I've never used one of these stations before, I have seen them and I feel like I'm going to lose a foot in them. They've got the big brushes. Can you tell me how to how to work it.

[Hana] 
They're pretty straightforward. So if you see a hygiene station, you're coming through, it has instructions. First thing is you'll come across a little brush and basically you can choose whether you want to take a seat on the hygiene station and use the hand tools or you can use the railing and just steady yourself and use the brush.

It's a bit of a rotating brush. And um the key thing is to make sure you're getting all the dirt off and look so inspect your shoes make sure that you do have all the dirt off and then the next step is there's a bit of a um a treadle, it's quite fun.

Kids like to jump on it—but please don't because they cost a lot of money. And basically this treadle has a 2% mix of sterigene with water and that'll blast up onto your shoes underneath and it'll basically – I guess it's like an extra layer of protection. But if you've already got clean shoes going through the hygiene station should be a breeze.

[Erica] 
So while it is a really scary disease, it is something that we can manage through stuff like this would you say?

[Hana] 
Yeah for sure and I would say the key thing is like really making sure that your equipment is clean or yeah I say I focused on boots with a hygiene station. But I mean everything you know your hiking poles your tent pegs your backpacks. Um. And it's – ah trucks, vehicles.

That's a huge thing as well. People love 4-wheel driving. But yeah, I guess it's like an old New Zealand thing to just like oh let's go 4-wheel driving in the Hilux you know and like the old Barry Crump um Toyota adverts and then they just you know rep it around town.

So I mean you know I love 4-wheel driving, don't get me wrong. But it's kind of – it's just a risk nowadays. You know you just you never know what's in that soil. But yeah so all equipment and it's really important when you're moving from forest to forest.

Because you could go into an infected forest and not realise and then you're not cleaning your stuff and you take it into a forest that doesn't have any kauri dieback and you've just taken it over there.

[Erica]
So would you say that's the most common misconception people have about kauri dieback is that you just don't realise that it's there? 

[Hana] 
Yeah I'd say I'd say so, that kind of um lack of education you know and I guess it's up to us. You know, our government agencies and that have voices that you know we have all these outlets that we can talk about this kind of stuff and so we need to get that message out there, you know, that this is this is what's happening, and this is this is how it's happening, and this is why.

You can't fault people for something that they don't know. But yeah, education [is crucial].

[Erica]
Do you find that many people that you talk to don't know what it is?

[Hana] 
Um I would say in recent years since I've brought it up, like among friends or even like I went to physio today and the guy knew what it was so um –

[Erica]  
Yay! Success.

[Hana]
I would say yeah I would say in recent years more and more people have learned about it.

But I mean you know before I even started working at DOC none of my friends knew about kauri dieback, I knew very little about it and so yeah I guess um with that funding that we've got over the past few years, that message has gotten out there.

I mean I started with my kauri job, I started working on tracks you know, just as track ambassador and I would stand there for you know hours of the day and just talk to anyone who came along about kauri dieback and kauri and how important it is that we spread this message.

[Erica]
Hana I've heard that there is a kauri costume… Could you please describe that to me or demonstrate it, can we put it up on Google later today?

[Hana] 
Ah oh man. Yeah the classic kauri costume. It's actually really cool. It's a very tall, long kauri tree and I've taken it around to a few day cares with me and 1 side has got a healthy looking kauri and the other side's got a bit of the dieback um symptoms on it.

And it's kind a kind of funny thing you get like the preschool teachers to dress up in this costume and all the kids are like you know running around and I think there's even like a bird's nest on the top with some fake eggs and it's just yeah. It's classic. It's so good.

[Erica]

That’s such a great way to get them to remember it, advocacy for the win!

[Hana] 
Yeah for sure! 

[Erica]
So Hana, in your summer ranger role or your Kaitiaki Kauri role, did you have pamphlets are you, you know, waiting for people to walk past? How are you easing them in to hearing all of this information?

[Hana] 
Yeah so I have the works out in the bush. I mean we have this one track and it's just basically like a 15 minute board walk loop. And cruise buses would come in--you know from the cruise ships--you'd get like you know, 200+ people a day coming through this walk.

As so we have this one section of the track where there’s kauri surrounding me and um there was a bit of a table ah in the middle of this this um part of it, and I would have like pamphlets and posters and massive printouts of the disease …

And basically, I would be there to compliment the bush. So I'd just be able to spark up a conversation with anyone and be like, “hey! Here's some kauri trees, have you heard of kauri dieback? This is what it is …” and you know, just showing people what it looks like and then you'd get people going around the track and they'd come back and be like, “oh this tree down there, it's got a bit of bleeding and you know, oh that one looks a little bit  … “

They just immediately took it on as soon as I had these you know these pictures and I had merchandise as well. You know had the old caps with the kauri on it and um little tote bags. So yeah.

[Erica]
Ah that's brilliant. What important work as well. Did you did you have a costume?

[Hana] 
No I was in the old DOC uniform you know!

[Erica]
No bird's nest on top of the head?

[Hana]
No, just my hair.

[Laughter]

[Erica]
So, Hana, I've heard that Northland iwi, Ngāti Wai and Ngāti Hine are looking into how whale bone could treat kauri dieback. Is that a conversation that has come up in hui?

[Hana] 
Yeah so a few months ago we actually had a wānanga--it was really a refreshing wānanga, you know we have a whole lot of meetings all the time about um I guess western science and all about you know that side of things and we got to find a cure and all this.

And we had this one hui, at the hut in Puketi, and we had the campfire going and you know we just had some kai and just talked and talked for hours about all the different stories and we had hapū that were represented from the whole forest--I mean there's a lot of hapū that whakapapa back to Puketi and Omahuta forest. And we had a kaumatua that came along talking about some of his mahi that he's been doing with whale bone and kanuka, super interesting.

And it definitely needs a space to have that conversation I think. I mean think about all the resourcing that we put into Western science you know and um it was a really interesting conversation about how mātauranga Māori and Western science are different and that you know people should accept that they're different and it's okay that they're different.

Which I think is you know it's absolutely true and they both need their own space. So I'm super interested in it, and I'm happy to support it I guess in my role in my work and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes.

[Erica]
So why whalebone for kauri?

[Hana] 
I guess um – and I'm not 100% confident actually sharing the story … if you ever get up to tāne mahuta, Te Rorua, they have kaitiaki out on the tracks and they share the story and it's just beautiful. Yeah really beautiful kōrero.

[Erica]  
So Hana you must have every day as such a great day on the job but do any stand out for you.

[Hana] 
For sure I've got a few I've got about probably 3 great days that I think about all the time.

So the first so the first one was back in 2019 so this is just yeah I guess a few months before COVID for Conservation Week. We had an evening at Puketi – we called it nga taonga kōrero o Puketi and basically we had ourselves and local community groups, conservation community groups, local hapū.

We had the scouts because they were you know a big part in setting up Conservation Week. And we had an evening where we basically had a whole lot of demos – we had demos of conservation dogs.

We had this like cut out of a possum on this massive sheet of wood and it's got little holes in it with some leg hold traps and you got to throw the tennis balls like in the traps and really good food.

We had a lot of puppets and stuff that kids would make um like bats and everything and we had like a running slide of a whole lot of old logging photos of the forest and we had guided walks with some really experienced and knowledgeable staff.

They took out you know families and that through a nature trail and it was just a really awesome night I was super proud of it. I think about that all the time. Um yeah that was probably a definite highlight for when I first started in DOC.

[Erica]
Oh my gosh. What an incredible advocacy kind of evening for everyone as well. Surprised you could see it whilst you were in the kauri costume though…

[Hana] 
Ah, I wasn't rocking the costume that night unfortunately.

[Erica]
Alas. Any others that spring to mind, you said you have three. I want to hear another one.

[Hana]
Yeah so another one was when we actually helped pull out a waka out of Omahuta forest. So there was an old kauri log that had been lying down in state and her name at the time was Taniwha.

And a crew went in there, local hapū, and started carving it in the forest. And then a few months later we all got together DOC, you know local hapū, and we pulled it out this waka that we split into three parts and we pulled it out one day and it was just so nice.

I mean we had like you know beautiful karakia in the morning and everyone was laughing and it was … yeah. You'd think it would be super heavy. But for whatever reason the karakia must have been good, because that thing went up the hill pretty fast!

[Erica]
Ah!

[Hana]
Now it's down just below our office actually, they're starting carving and hopefully it's ready by next Waitangi Day or sometime around then. That's a highlight--I mean, I'm probably never ever going to get to do that again in my life. So yeah, super special. 

[Erica]
That's so special to have to have known it from concept as well. Like right from the start when they brought it out.

[Hana] 
Yeah and it's funny, I've got some photos of my brother and myself as little kids standing on that log.

[Erica]
And that was your hapū as well, wasn't it?

[Hana] 
Yeah, yeah, I whakapapa back to that area and it was actually a gift from our hapū to Ngāti Rehia which is another hapū on the Eastern side. Yeah, beautiful story.

[Erica]
Hana, that sounds meaningful on so many different levels that must have been quite an emotional experience for you.

[Hana] 
Yeah I think any time I get to work, you know, wearing multiple hats is a special time I mean yeah I guess it's one thing to be there and working for DOC but to be there as DOC but also local hapū I mean yeah, how many people get that opportunity? Super special.

[Erica]  
And you've just told me recently that you are only 24 and you are incredibly accomplished for being only 24! Are there any days that you can think of where your team made a discovery or you made a discovery.

[Hana] 
Yeah ah so …. when was it back in 2020? Um so short-tailed bats, they're only found in Omahuta forest. And they were found there a long time ago, I think it was in the 70s this kauri fell down and there was a bat population living in that kauri.

And so they went in like—"oh my gosh. There's a whole lot of short tail bats in here!” and ever since then I mean there hasn't been a lot of predator control in Omahuta until recently, because in 2020 our bio team found a huge bat roost of shorttail bats in rātā tree… I remember the team coming back that day and everyone was just super stoked and excited that you know we have all these bats and there's hundreds in this one tree.

And then we kept finding other little roost trees around the area and I mean they can travel so far you know up to 20 kms every night. So you can just imagine how much roost trees we were finding!

And we still have no idea how widespread they are so every year we do that monitoring. But yeah that was huge. That was really huge and also to take that back to the local hapū and we took them out there one day and did a bit of a hīkoi out to the track and [there were] so many questions and everyone's smiling and you know it's just so it's just so awesome. Yeah.

[Erica]
Ah isn’t it amazing how a native species can bring everyone together as well. It's like such a sense of you know that's so special that taonga.

[Hana] 
Yeah for sure, and I mean people don't even know that we have bats you know a lot of the time. Um and they're so tiny and they're our only mammal you know, mammal species and super special.

[Erica]
And they're pretty different as well, compared to other kind of bats.

[Hana]
Very different. Yeah.

[Erica]
I love that this doesn't even make it into your kind of weird and funny days at work, so you found all of those bats. So tell me now about some of the weird and funny things that have happened to you in many of your roles.                                                               

[Hana] 
Yeah so I mean yeah there's always funny moments and they always happen to be with the public every time. There's is one particular beach on one of the islands and every time I've gone there, something strange has happened.

The first time was in summer, and I walked around the corner and there was just like an entire family just naked like lying on the beach. Just starkers, and I had like a bright orange DOC [vest] – you know I couldn't just slowly back away and act like I hadn’t seen anything.

And they all just like got up and started running around, I was like oh my god--yeah I just have to, like, turn away and quickly. And then around the same area, there's this one guy, he’s known to people in the office, he just has his yacht and he just walks around you know in the nude just flashing …

[Erica]
Is it a nudist beach. No?

[Hana]
No, it's not! It's a public beach on an island that gets a lot of visitors every year. But it always happens around the same place!

[Erica]
Wow. I wonder if there's a website somewhere saying this is where we go. Wow that took a turn I didn't expect this to go that way. 

[Hana]
Yeah, no there's a few of those ones, a few of those stories.

[Erica]
I believe it!

[Hana] 
This one time we were out in Whangamumu and it wasn't a super busy track that day but we were walking down to the beach and heard this rustling in the bush next us and we were like what was that? So we turn around. There was this guy who was you know was relieving -

[Erica]
Not nude!

[Laughter]

[Hana]
He was relieving himself in the bush of the track and if he didn't move, we wouldn't have seen anything. But yeah then we just saw this person running through the bush with toilet paper trailing behind them.

[Erica]
Which is not the DOC message by the way, poo in a loo please.

[Hana] 
Exactly. And there was a loo at the side of the track that we just put in. I mean yeah. But these are the things you see.

[Erica]
Oh Wow. So comparatively …. or completely flipped, are there moments where you're like I can't believe this is my job? – not following someone around when they've got toilet paper in their hand—but are there other times you can think of where you're like I get to do this, how cool is this? 

[Hana] 
I think just any time I'm out you know, working outside. I remember when I first started and you know going to all these new places and it was just like oh my gosh, you know?

You just -some of the views people pay to come out, you know, to these places and, you know, you get to go out there and you just… even just cleaning a hut you know at Cape Brett and you're like “oh there's the hole in the rock and there's some seals, there's some penguins and just the views …” and yeah I mean getting to go in the middle of the bush that people don't go into and seeing all these waterfalls and it's just super, super special. All those places.

[Erica]
That that is so special and so many of us don't get out to those areas that you see on like a daily basis that must be incredible.

Do you have – Hana, do you have any favourite places, or is it just everywhere that you go?

[Hana] 
I mean I'd say everywhere. But every time we get to work out in the islands is pretty special because we have 7 pest-free islands out in the bays so they've got you know the bird life is just incredible.

In particular I love Moturua Island and we get to go you know into the – all the catchments and stuff to do our trapping and tracking cards and everything and there's just like deafening noises, all the saddlebacks just like right in your ear, you know, shouting alarms and then you have tūi swooping and there's even like a rūrū that comes down and says hello every time.

… You don't you don't get that on the mainland. It's really awesome to take people out there, and then you're like you know we could have this in you know on the mainland, this is what it could sound like one day. Hopefully.

[Erica]  
That's true, I remember on Hauturu it's just like if you just stand there and just listen you know that's what we should do if we had all the money in the world would take everyone out there and just stand there and listen and be like we could have this on the mainland. Predator Free 2050 let's do it.

[Hana]
Let’s do it.

[Erica]
Unfortunately, in conservation it's not always good news all the time as we know. What has been one of the most disappointing discoveries for you?

[Hana] 
Yeah that'll have to be back in 2019 just before we were breaking for summer. We did you know all that soil sampling that I was talking about from the aerial surveys. And we went in to do this one particular site in Puketi and it was right in the middle of Puketi. And these trees were dead.

But we had sampled so many other trees before that were dead and they came back, you know, negative and we sampled these trees and the results came back the week before we went on break and they came back positive. And I guess coming from that forest you know having that connection from you know whakapapa. It was yeah, I remember hearing that news and I was like oh I just felt like crying, you know.

You know it's your forest and now it's got this disease and you don't know how far spread it's in the forest and how did it get into the middle of the forest if it's not on the outskirts. And some of the trees that we sampled had like old gum bleeds because they used to illegally bleed kauri back in the you know the 1920s for their gum.

And so these trees had scars all across the bottoms. And we found this one tree particularly, up the ridge on the other side and it just had a huge slash you know through it like it had been sawed but then they just kind of gave up on the tree.

And so yeah that was – I kind of spent like that Christmas/New Year's break just thinking about the fact that you know we had this infected site now in this forest and then the first week that we came back to work. We went straight back in to sample it again just in case and it was, it was positive.

And then having to spread that you know that news of this positive site in this forest to hapū and to all the community groups and to contacts you know … yeah.

It was it was super, super tough I guess being on the receiving side of the information as hapū but also the one that actually went in and did the sampling and then has to go through the process of you know, consulting and yeah. So that was a really bummer of a day.

[Erica]
That's heartbreaking. Especially because you're like trying so hard to manage this issue as well and you're so connected to this particular place.

[Hana] 
Yeah, we did have a karakia the second time we went to sample it. We had a karakia before we did any sampling.

[Erica]
Yeah.

[A moment of quiet]

So Hana just listening to you, it makes me so frustrated that we've treated kauri so badly. You know in the 1920s people were bleeding these trees in the 1980s we only just stopped logging and now we are spreading kauri dieback by not just taking 5 minutes to wash our gear before we go into the forest.

And then of course there's that flow-on effect when kauri are sick and that effect to the entire forest. Tell us about that, how does that make you feel?

[Hana] 
Yeah I guess I'm kind of the same I feel a bit frustrated. But I'm never hopeless. I've always got hope that things will get better or you know that people are going to be starting to get more aware or that the forest is always going to be there in some capacity.

And I guess going back to what you were saying … we've put kauri through a lot, but you know it's actually these whole forests that have been put through [a lot]. Plowed, logging roads chucked through … and it wasn't just kauri that was being logged, it was, you know, rimu and totara, all these other trees that were getting logged, but imagine a forest without kauri. I just I couldn't, I couldn't imagine that.

And I guess kauri, in order for kauri to survive, we need to look after the forest as a whole because they all hold each other up. You know, underneath all the roots that you know, they’re connected.

And so I guess the forests as a whole we need to look after and I guess, yes we need to look after kauri and we need to stop the spread of kauri dieback, but we also need to think about the forest as a whole and you know talking about pigs and possums and goats and rats and cats and all that. Um but yeah … I guess to save one species, you have to think about the whole forest.

[Erica]
I love the hope that you have, and you're absolutely right about you know as we make people more aware and all those kids with the preschool teacher dressing up in the kauri costume, they're going to grow up to save these forests as well. That's – I love that, that's pretty cool. 

It's so important that we remember you know while there is no cure, we do know how to manage it and we have been you know successfully managing it at places.

And so what do people need to remember if they're going into the forest in the north? 

[Hana] 
I guess that key message: arrive clean leave clean. That's the main one. Stick to the tracks, stick to open tracks. You know these tracks have been upgraded for a reason.

Don't go off the track as tempting as it is to go and hug the kauri tree, if you can't reach it from the track just don't go near it. Clean your gear, especially if you're going from forest to forest and spread the message, not the disease.

[Erica]
Oh I like that one.

[Hana]
That's a good one aye, it's a good one.

[Erica]
Is it yours, is it real?

[Hana]
I don't I don't know… did I hear that from someone? Maybe yeah.

[Erica]
We should make it real. And what's 1 thing that you wish everyone listening would tell their friends?

[Hana] 
I would just say that you know there’s this disease called kauri dieback and it attacks kauri trees and it's really simple to clean your gear and make sure that you clean them before you go into any kauri lands or any kauri forests.

[Erica]
And stop spreading the plant destroyer which is a very cool name but not a very cool disease.

[Hana] 
Yeah exactly.

[Erica]
Hana this has been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for coming on and I've learned so much this episode that I didn't know, and I'm going to now go and spread all of the words and none of the disease. Thank you.

[Hana] 
All good. Thank you so much for having me.

[Erica]

Thank you for listening, I’m your host Erica Wilkinson and this has been the DOC Sounds of Science Podcast. This show is available wherever you get your podcasts, or you can stream it off our website, doc.govt.nz.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and show our hard-working guests some love. Ka kite.

[Erica]

Kia ora. I'm Erica Wilkinson, New Zealand's Acting Threatened Species Ambassador. And this is the DOC Sounds of Science Podcast.

 

[Erica]

Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s technical experts, scientists, rangers and the experts in between. Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science.

 

Today's episode is with Michelle Bradshaw, who is our national bird banding officer. Kia ora Michelle!

 

[Michelle]

Kia ora Erica. Ko Michelle Bradshaw tōku ingoa. Hi Erica. My name's Michelle Bradshaw. Kei Te Papa Atawhai ahau e mahi ana. I work at the Department of Conservation.

 

 

[Erica]

Kia ora! Michelle's job is truly one of a kind. Aotearoa has only one bird banding officer and we are talking to her. Michelle administers the National Bird Banding Scheme, which coordinates the banding of birds within New Zealand. She's an expert on why it's important to band, what to do if you find a banded bird and how to become a certified bander.

 

[Erica]

She's so into it that she's wearing an albatross band on her finger. Let the banding banter begin. Michelle, describe for us what your role entails.

 

[Michelle]

As banding officer, I coordinate the NZNBBS, the New Zealand National Bird Banding Scheme, and that is I keep track of the bands, the banders and the banded birds. So let me see, that's over 2 million bands, 1.6 million banded birds, 400,000 odd re-sighting events and over 1,000 banders. The Banding Office also oversees a certification system ensuring that operators are competent.

 

[Michelle]

We run a shop, bands and banding equipment. We provide advice on permits and projects. We do lots and lots of admin and emails and manage the bird banding database, which is dubbed ‘Falcon’. Of course, I don't do all of this by myself. I'm assisted by a re-sighting Officer, Sandy and a technical administrator, Annemieke, as well as a volunteer Lance.

 

[Michelle]

And then there’s the banding advisory committee, which is a panel of experts that provide me with all kinds of advice. But we don't only manage banding of Birds, also other marking techniques such as microchips or transponders. And in fact we're not limited to only birds. We also manage marking of bats, you know, the ones that won the manu of the year competition last year.

 

[Michelle]

So that's what I do as banding officer.

 

[Erica]

Wow that is quite a lot. So how did you become the banding officer?

 

[Michelle]

I first travelled to New Zealand about 20 years ago. I'd seen a documentary of David Attenborough talking about kākāpō while they were climbing all over him. And I thought, no, that's not fair. I also want to do that. And so I did. I travelled around the country and I volunteered for any conservation project that appealed to me, and there were lots.

 

[Michelle]

So some of the volunteering I did includes kākāpō on Whenua Hou, Codfish Island, takahē on Maud Island, yellow eyed penguins in Dunedin, grey-faced petrels at Bethels Beach Te Henga, [and] volunteering at the Wingspan Birds of Prey Trust in Rotorua. It was wonderful. I mean, I could just walk into a DOC office and say, “so what needs doing around here?”

 

[Michelle]

In Te Anau for instance, they said, yeah, well, we could really do with some help from somebody to check the stoat traps in the Murchison Mountains. And so I did. That's actually when I saw my first takahē at Lake Orbell where they were rediscovered in 1948. I really liked the conservation ethic and all I wanted to do was one day work for DOC, don’t we all.

 

[Michelle]

Well, I persisted for many years and in that time I did conservation volunteering around the world in other fantastic places, and I was delighted when eventually DOC offered me the position of banding Officer in 2016 and I'm pretty sure that my original volunteering played quite a large role in that appointment.

 

[Erica]

What a career! That is an incredible start, would you suggest volunteering as a really good road into conservation? It sounds like that's a great way.

 

[Michelle]

Absolutely. If anybody is wondering whether conservation work is for them, go try it out. There are so many wonderful opportunities in New Zealand and in fact we rely on volunteers to do a lot of the actual on the ground conservation work. It doesn't actually have to be volunteering in the field. You could even volunteer collating data, doing scanning of old archived records, which is what our volunteer in the banding office does.

 

[Michelle]

And so even if you want to be a desk jockey, you could still be a conservation volunteer. You don't have to be out digging holes or killing stoats, et cetera.

 

[Erica]

That is good to know. And if people don't know where to start, do head to the volunteer part of the DOC website. So what is bird banding and why do we do it? Tell me about that.

 

[Michelle]

I would say bird banding is a bit like a number plate on a car. It provides an individual identification. It has letters and numbers on it on a little metal plate, and that's the same as what we do with birds. So for instance, if you see five sparrows in your backyard one day and you see five sparrows there the next day, and the day after that, you see 10 sparrows.

 

[Michelle]

How many sparrows are there in your backyard?

 

[Erica]

20

 

[Michelle]

Exactly. Exactly. So the individual identification is what allows us to know for certain if it's the same bird that's been seen again or not. And of course you can’t always read that teeny tiny little number on the little metal band, they're not quite as big as car number plates as the bird flies around. And so sometimes we add colour bands to aid in identifying birds without having to recapture them.

 

[Erica]

OK, so what do the colours mean?

 

[Michelle]

Well, it's not as though green means this bird likes eating green grubs and you know, red means he likes red berries or something like that. Actually, a specific colour could be used to mark, for instance, all the robin chicks that were hatched in Zealandia in a given year, if they're all given a yellow colour mark over the metal and the next year, they use a different colour, then that would be called cohort marking.

 

[Michelle]

So all the birds of a particular cohort or a particular year or even a particular area could, for instance, be given a similar colour. And then when you were to see them again, you'd know something about that bird without even needing to look up additional information. But you can also use several colours, and the combination would tell you the identity, the individual identity of that bird. So when I run banding workshops for school children and this is from kindergarten through to high school, we have all the kids colour band themselves with these coloured strips of cardboard on their legs and they learn that you report colour bands, left leg, top to bottom, and then right leg, top to bottom.

 

[Michelle]

And that's the bird's legs, not your own legs, but in this case it's the only legs that are colour banded. And even four year olds know the names of colours, they know it in English and in te reo. It's amazing. And most kids know left from right. And so they're all run around and they pretend to be birds and they record one another's unique colour combinations.

 

[Michelle]

It's great fun, but it's a nice way to teach them how to do that recording of colour combinations and how important it is to ensure that those colour combinations are unique. Otherwise, we won't be able to know which bird we’re looking at. And the kids are also really quick to learn the first rule about bird banding - don't do it, which sounds a bit unintuitive, doesn't it?

 

[Michelle]

So the first rule about bird banding is don't do it. Unless there's a purpose, a permit, and competent people and all the data are submitted to the banding office.

 

[Erica]

OK, so what species do get banded then? If it's very particular?

 

[Michelle]

We band all species, introduced species, native species, threatened species, game birds, et cetera. All of it is in order to learn more not only about that particular species, but potentially their interaction with other species, their movement over time, changes in distributions over time, how far they move, how long they live, et cetera.

 

[Erica]

So what kind of information can we get from banding?

 

[Michelle]

If a bird does something unexpected, does it do it again? Have you ever heard of a banded, banded dotterel, you know, a banded Dotterel that's been banded, right? So there's a bird from Wellington named Pap due to the letters on his flag, which is easy to spot from a distance without needing to catch this bird. So Pap was reported having a holiday during lockdown in 2020 in New Caledonia.

 

[Michelle]

Now we know lots of Kiwi folk like going to the warmer islands during winter, but it was assumed that banded dotterels are vagrants to New Caledonia, they only visit occasionally. So when PAP was reported to us from New Caledonia, we thought maybe he was blown off course on his way to Australia or he's lost. We're not going to see this poor bird again.

 

[Michelle]

And then he returned to Eastbourne to nest with his partner PEY. And so he wasn't lost. And you know what? He went again in 2021 to the same spot. At Nakutakoin in New Caledonia without his partner. And we've just had news that he did the same trip again this year, there and back so if he was just a banded dotterel and not a banded, banded dotterel, we'd be none the wiser.

 

[Erica]

That’s fascinating. And do other banded dotterels do that or is that a real specific to Pap?

 

[Michelle]

Well, we know it's specific to Pap because he's a banded, banded dotterel. Other banded dotterels that come and go, we can't be certain whether they're the same ones or not.

 

[Erica]

Of course. And the godwits, you band them as well don't you? Tell me about that.

 

[Michelle]

Yes. A lot of what we know now about birds were actually first figured out through bird banding so the bar-tailed godwit, or kuaka, they don't like winters, so they spend the summer here in New Zealand. And then when winter approaches they fly via China to Alaska and they go and breed there in the Northern Hemisphere summer, and then after breeding they fly 11,000 kilometers nonstop, directly back to New Zealand.

 

[Michelle]

They can't land on water, they can't sleep while flying. Eight days nonstop, 11,000 kilometers. When they get here, they're promptly fall asleep. And this was first worked out by researchers in Alaska watching banded birds depart. And this was before the days of, you know, WhatsApp, etc. But they probably would have sent a message to the researchers here in New Zealand saying this bird has just left now.

 

[Michelle]

And then they start the countdown. And then you have the researchers in New Zealand watching when they arrive here and they can see that exact bird. There was a particular Godwit, with a flag E7, that had done some amazing trips. And when they arrive here, then they can tell their counterparts in Alaska Yes, yes, this bird has arrived. And they still do that, both the birds as well as the bird watchers.

 

[Erica]

That amazing. How do they stay alive during that trip? So they can't land on water. Do they just – they obviously eat enough and then go on their way?

 

 

[Michelle]

Yeah, they need to fatten up prior to the long migration and they even take into account the weather, the atmospheric conditions, the wind directions, etc. We now have birds with satellite transmitters on and we can look a lot more finely at their decisions and how they're impacted by all of these massive weather events or deciding to delay their departures. There's some birds that they have found depart New Zealand from exactly the same spot on the same day each year.

 

[Michelle]

Uncanny, like clockwork. And we call them bird brains. It is unbelievable. But the first knowledge of this was actually thanks to bird banding that we knew that they actually fly directly, they don't stop anywhere. And it's just – it's amazing what we can learn about these birds.

 

[Erica]

That is amazing! How do you decide which birds you're going to band.

 

[Michelle]

You know, they line up and they volunteer. They say “band me, band me!”. No not actually. As I said, there has to be a purpose and very good reason before you mark a bird. That bird is going to wear that band forever. So you need to find out what data, what data do you need to answer the questions you're trying to answer and how many birds actually need to be marked in order to do that.

 

[Michelle]

And so in order to obtain enough information, for instance, on longevity, you need to actually mark an inordinate number of birds in order to get enough data over time. And it might be hard to predict beforehand whether ten birds are enough or 50. Or maybe you need to mark 50,000 birds to get the data you want. The main thing is to ensure that the purpose of marking is such that that bird is not wearing that mark for no purpose.

 

[Erica]

That's such a good point. It sounds quite scary to think of holding one of those birds and doing something like that to them. How nerve wracking is that for you?

 

[Michelle]

Well, you know, whether you are holding an orange fronted parakeet kākāriki karaka or a sparrow, you need to be equally careful. Capturing and handling and marking, sampling is all very stressful for the bird, and it can be for the bander also and the welfare of the bird is paramount regardless of its conservation status. You're dealing with a fragile live and very special creature and what you're about to do, if you're going to put a band on, for instance, it's going to affect that bird for the rest of its life. It's a bit like wearing a watch. If a watch irritates you, you can take it off or if it gets in the way, etc, and then you can put it on again when you want to. But birds can't do that with a band and so we need to look at things from the bird's perspective or whichever animal you marking.

 

[Michelle]

… From the bird's perspective, it would probably rather be banded by an expert than by a trainee. But at any rate, we need to ensure that whoever handles and marks those birds are competent and keep the welfare of the bird, first and foremost.

 

[Erica]

That is such a good point. And that doesn't just apply to birds, right? It applies to all species.

 

[Michelle]

Yes. In fact, when I used to be involved in shark research, where we would capture and mark great white sharks I came up with an analogy to remind me to see things from the animal's perspective. So the shark is happily swimming around in its own environment. And the next thing, we capture it and we pull it up out of the water and it sees bright sunlight.

 

[Michelle]

It's never seen the sun in its life. And so there’s this really bright light. And so we cover the eyes of the shark in order to shield it from the bright light. But it's also from the shark's perspective, in outer space, it can't even breathe. I mean, we've pulled it out of the water and so we put a pump into the mouth in order to flush water over the gills.

 

[Michelle]

We turn the shark on its back and it goes into tonic immobility. If you ever catch a shark, try it, turn it on its back and it just lies there. And so we've pulled it onto our ship you know, the big mothership in outer space, from the shark's perspective. And then these tall alien beings, being ourselves, we’re pretty alien to sharks and what we do is we make a tiny incision and we insert an acoustic transmitter inside the shark and we sew it back up. We take all kinds of measurements and we learn lots about the shark while we're at it.

 

[Michelle]

But once we've done all of that, we release the shark back into its own environment, back into the water, obviously, and the shark wakes up and it thinks, whoa, something weird has just happened. I mean, I remember this bright light. I was definitely in outer space. There were these tall alien beings, I was on a mothership. And I tell you they're tracking me and he's trying to tell his buddies, you know, these aliens have put a tracker on me.

 

[Michelle]

And they’re watching my every movement and his buddies go yeah, right. You OK? So it's a bit of a silly story, but it puts us in looking at things from the animals perspective. So when we’re capturing and marking these animals, what is that little birdie thinking when he's in your hand? Once you've put that mark on and he flies around and all his buddies see his bling, what's he telling them?

 

[Michelle]

‘Dude, you have an ankle bracelet on. What were you up to?’ We don't really know. But it is good to ensure that what we do doesn't only take into account our own perspective, but to look at it and put the shoe on the other foot. Wear a band yourself. And look at it from the animals perspective.

 

[Erica]

OK, and does it affect the birds that you band? So you've got a kea that's not banded and a kea that is banded. Is the banded kea – does it fly less fast because of the weight?

 

[Michelle]

There's all kinds of impacts whether it's the capture process, the marking process, whatever you did to the bird, how long you held it while you were doing all of this. And we need to be cognisant of the fact that anything we do to these birds impacts them. And so minimizing our impact, ensuring that people that are marking the birds as well as the marks and the equipment that are used are of the highest quality and have been assessed not to have a detrimental impact.

 

[Michelle]

Obviously, it will have a detrimental impact. We can't pretend it doesn't. And so that's also why the first rule of bird banding is don't do it unless there's a good purpose and a permit and certified operators as well as the data coming into a centralized database. Because even if you mark that bird and you did it beautifully according to best practice and there’s a purpose to marking it, etc., if that data are not held in a central repository, then when that bird is ever re-sighted again – most often by members of the public who report it to us, and that's an incredibly valuable data –

 

[Michelle]

If we don't have the record of the first marking of that bird, it was wearing that mark for nothing. It can’t contribute to our broader knowledge. So pausing before marking is the best approach.

 

[Erica]

Brilliant. Well, it sounds like it's a very careful and thought through process. And like you say, the first rule is don't do it. That brings us to training. I was pretty fascinated to learn that you actually have 3D printed legs for learning. Tell us about that.

 

[Michelle]

Yeah. When people ask, Oh, can I come and have a look at your legs? I get some strange looks. But to be clear, these are 3D printed bird legs.

 

[Michelle]

To give trainees something realistic to practice on. So I've also made puppets to attach the legs to, to make it a bit more like holding an actual bird.

 

[Erica]

And you make them really unpredictable.

 

[Michelle]

Well, yeah, I've tried really hard to make them poop and bite and struggle, but real birds are way better at that. So people have used twigs or spaghetti sticks, etc. to practice bird banding, which is brilliant, even dead specimens. So I thought that having a real leg, maybe not a stinky dead one would be great to practice on and we could even post them around the country on loan for people to practice and then they post us the legs back. We do receive actual legs in the post from time to time when someone picks up a, you know, a bird that died on the beach, for instance.

 

[Michelle]

There was a little six year old boy that was on holiday and he came across these legs lying on the beach and they had tags on them and one of the tags, every single band has an address on it. And the address at the moment says ‘Send DOC, Box 108, Wellington’. So he wrote us a beautiful letter. He said, “Dear DOC, we were walking on the beach and we found these legs with tags on them and one of them said, Send them to you, so I am”.

 

[Michelle]

But he sent them legs and all. You know, not just the bands. So, so Sandy, our re-sightings officer receives these letters in the post. You first want to feel, you know, are they squishy or not? So generally we only need the information on the band, you know, the numbers. Photographs would be marvellous. You may keep the bands.

 

[Michelle]

I don't suggest you keep the legs, and we don't really need them either, but we do have these 3D printed legs that people can use, you know, if they want to practice attaching and removing bands.

 

[Erica]

My gosh, I'm just imagining the people that New Zealand post is that sent through. Oh, that's a lovely thought. Mean, he was trying to do the right thing. That's really cool. That reminds me of Kate McInnes, who we had on this podcast a long time ago who accidentally tried to send a packet of Dorito chips, a photo of them back to the company.

 

[Erica]

But because she's a vet for DOC, she had many things on her photo reel, including dead birds. And so she sent to Doritos a photo of a dead bird saying, I found this in a Doritos packet. What are you going to do about it? I can imagine that quite a few people get traumatized by the process of conservation

 

[Erica]

If you think of your DOC career, can you tell me about a memorable discovery?

 

[Michelle]

We often say that every band tells a story. We have over 400,000 stories and counting. This one particular story about a banded tītī, sooty shearwater that secured compensation and funding for Rakiura Māori. So the story of the big south Cape Island city outlines the value of a banding system. Several of these islands around Rakiura, Stewart Island were infested with rats threatening the numbers and the ability to harvest birds.

 

[Michelle]

Now zoom across to the opposite side of the world. In 1998 the release of bunker fuel by a vessel, the TV Command, off the coast of the US, they killed thousands of seabirds and among over a thousand birds tītī washed up dead on the Californian coastline. So picture these icky oil covered birds died on the beach. 11 of those birds were tītī and one of those had been banded at a New Zealand breeding colony by Otago University.

 

[Michelle]

And because the band actually says ‘New Zealand’ stamped on it, it provided a crucial link as to the providence of these birds where they had come from. So this particular bird--Z27231--he carried this band 11,329 kilometers only to die in an oil spill. But it was not wearing its band in vain. Our long term data set had the original banding record and this banding data was used in a court of law resulting in compensation funding as a fine of over $600,000.

 

[Michelle]

That was then used to remove threats from the Tītī Islands through the Rakiura Restoration Project. And this would not have happened in the absence of banded birds and it indicates the value of data curation--having a good data set of banding records--as well as how active protection as a treaty principle can be carried out.

 

[Erica]

That is such a bittersweet story and a sad outcome for one bird. But like you say there are 400,000 stories and I wonder what else has happened to this kind of incredible is there is there anything there must be so many things that are quite strange that you've observed through banding. Can you think of any?

 

[Michelle]

Well we need to keep in mind that banding is for us as humans to tell the difference between birds the birds don't read one another's bands to tell who's who, as far as I can tell at least. So I worked with a captive population of African penguins and there was one really fat bird called Zesty. He was huge.

 

[Michelle]

He weighed in at over six kilograms when the average adult weight is around three kilograms or two and a half, maybe. Well, Zesty had a way with a girls. They just adored him. He would have two or three girlfriends at a time, even females who had a long term partner. These are supposedly monogamous species! And they must have thought Zesty had access to amazing resources you know being so fat.

 

[Michelle]

But the problem was that you know he couldn't actually mate you know he’d fall off, And when incubating eggs he would squash them. So but the females just loved him but Porky, Porky on the other hand he wasn't fat --

 

[Erica]

Who is naming these?!

 

[Michelle]

You see it's inevitable when you attach a mark to an animal they become individuals and we learn more about their individual characters than if they were just one of many in a population. And that's part of what bird banding can show us. So there was this other bird called Porky. He was 33 years old, possibly the oldest African penguin ever in captivity.

 

[Michelle]

In the wild they probably only live between five and maybe ten, 12 years. But Porky was still breeding at age 33. In fact, he had outlived three partners and he would happily adopt any other chicks. He was, he was that good a father that he would adopt and feed any other chicks, which is also not necessarily what we would expect these birds to do.

 

[Michelle]

And then there was on the other end of the spectrum, Pinker, who didn't wait for the normal three to four years of age to start breeding. He sired chicks with not one, but two different females include one of them that was actually released, his girlfriend and already someone else's wife before his second birthday. But he wasn't so sure who he had to swap incubation duties with.

 

[Michelle]

And so he didn't, you know, teenagers. So there's a lot of this soap opera type stuff that goes on in all bird societies. It might even go against our assumptions of what we think birds get up to, whether they're monogamous and who cares for the chicks, et cetera, et cetera. But at least we can recognize the birds as individuals.

 

[Michelle]

We actually don't know these stories. And so we band them and we learn lots and lots.

 

[Erica]

There's amazing I've heard a story about a penguin that would in order to get rocks for its nest, it would not be as monogamous as they are supposed to be. I was so shocked. I thought penguins are monogamous that’s it. Anyway. Yeah. I feel like every day is probably what most of us would call a bizarre day at work for you.

 

But can you think of any outliers?

 

[Michelle]

In terms of bizarre things, our re-sightings officer would be would be good at that. She is she's on the receiving end of all of these marvellous stories. So when members of the public see a bird that has been marked, any mark, we really encourage them to report those to us because it's only really when a bird is re-sighted it that we can learn anything about it in terms of how far it's moved, how long it's lived, et cetera, et cetera.

 

[Michelle]

And so we receive all kinds of stories, sometimes not even of marked birds. It was one memorable one of an email that we received about somebody that said they saw a kea, a big green thing, looks like a parrot, a young one, maybe only a year old, but unfortunately, it was deceased on the roadside. And it wasn't until they'd passed by driving, towing a house, that they realized what it was they saw.

 

[Michelle]

And so they emailed us. Now, this isn't a marked bird, as far as we could tell, but dead birds on the side of the road may well be worth investigating to see whether they do have marks on. And so because the finder was actually towing a house, they didn't stop but we suggested to them, kea don't really occur at Te Puke on the North Island. It was probably a kaka.

 

[Michelle]

And so they thought, okay, well, they'd better Google what it is they saw. And they sent us a photograph. This is what we saw, a kākāpō. Now, we have joked in a Department of Conservation that when people start reporting roadkill of kākāpō, we have reached our conservation goals.

 

[Erica]

So I'm not disagreeing with you.

 

[Michelle]

I'm not quite sure we there yet. So they sent us this photograph of the ‘kākāpō’ saying this is what they saw and they're going to return to the spot to see if it's still there. … so obviously went to go find this kākāpō on the side of the road and they were so disappointed, absolutely gutted.

 

[Michelle]

There wasn't anything, they were so certain they walked up and down the side of the road trying to find this bird that they saw and they didn't. But hopefully through all of this and them now understanding that we actually have a banding office and a banding scheme and they're understanding that they should learn a little bit more about New Zealand birds despite their disappointment and saying it was very, very bizarre and they really, really wanted to report it.

 

[Michelle]

If you were to find something, no matter how bizarre, please tell us about it. There may well be something in it that we can learn from or that you can learn from that.

 

[Erica]

We've had some wonderful DOC Hots calls I always want to tell people about because they're so brilliantly funny. Someone called saying, you've got to come around. There's a penguin on my roof. And DOC’s like penguins can’t actually fly. And they're like, Well, this one can on my roof! Really good to to call it in anyway, because you're right, there might be something in it.

 

[Erica]

Is there a is there a favourite conservation conversion fact that you tell people to get them hooked.

 

[Michelle]

I would say I don't work in conservation. I work for conservation. It's not just a job. And after all these years of volunteering around the world, I still continue to volunteer. And it's knowing that you're making a difference that gets people hooked. If they if they're curious, go give it a try. Even if it's just volunteering see whether you want to work in conservation, whether you want to work for conservation.

 

[Michelle]

But just remember, it's not just a job it'll take over your life.

 

[Erica]

That's such a good point. What kind of volunteering do you do at the moment?

 

[Michelle]

Mostly ironically for the Banding office so as I said, you could do volunteering by sitting behind a desk. And one of the things I thoroughly enjoy is now that we have a new centralized bird banding database set up, but that is openly accessible for our banders to submit data my biggest thrill, and it doesn't sound like conservation, but for me it is, is when people submit clean data sets. I don't like dirty data.

 

[Michelle]

And so a lot of my volunteering is cleaning dirty data statistics. So dirty data would be for instance, if you want to know what dirty data might look like when somebody reports a sighting record of a banded bird on a date prior to that bird being banded or a doubly dead duck, you know, I mean, there's some ducks that just keep dying over and over and over when they should tell someone, you know, like nine lives of a cat.

 

[Michelle]

So ensuring that the records we keep are valuable for comparison was 30 years ago. 50 years ago, and then we have a clean data set that people can use in the next 20 and 50- and 100-years’ time. If we're looking at change over time where there is climate change impacts or distribution or the improvements that we are bringing about through our predator control efforts, we want to be able to compare data sets at different points in time.

 

[Michelle]

And we can't do that if we don't have all the data in one place and we can't have much conservation insight in our data unless we ensure those records are clean. So I enjoy cleaning data.

 

[Erica]

So instead of getting a carrier bag and sending it to you, what should I do if I find a dead or an injured banded bird.

 

[Michelle]

First thing would be to contact your local DOC office if it's especially if it's an injured bird, but if it's a banded bird, don't capture the bird. Just to read the band number, take photographs if you can and report the band number and the details to the banding office. And on our Falcon app, we have a sighting form that steps you through how to report this.

 

[Michelle]

And that's that app, that’s app.birdbanding.doc.govt.nz/ and we'll be able to respond to you regarding the banding details of that bird and photographs are the best way to double check the species, and make sure you report the locality and any other information and that might be important, such as has it been injured by a dog or a cat or is this bird, I don't know, sitting on your roof, sharing your lunch, dead on the beach, dead next to the side of the road, et cetera.

 

[Erica]

Took a turn. OK, that's, that's brilliant. And how do I go about getting myself some three D legs or going to a banding workshop? Should I want to become a bird bander like 1100 people in New Zealand.

 

[Michelle]

We have a system of Level one trainees, and you need no experience to register as a level one trainee bander. So contact the banding office, (bandingoffice@doc.govt.nz) and register as a level one trainee bander. But remember, bird banding isn't something we do for our entertainment. We need to learn about the birds, their moult, their momorphometrics, movement, its breeding, survival, population sizes, habitat use, et cetera.

 

[Michelle]

We band them in order to gain this knowledge. We don't band them because it's a fun thing to do for ourselves. So if you'd like to contribute to all of that, then by all means learn to become a competent bander. Just be prepared to put in the effort. It can take months or even years and you can't learn bird banding through attending a workshop or a course.

 

[Michelle]

And if you're a level one trainee bander, you can't capture or mark birds unless you're directly supervised by a level three expert. And so we can put you in touch with people who are already running projects that you can participate in.

 

[Erica]

Brilliant.

 

Conservation is often talked about as fighting the good fight, where, you know, we have this incredible job that we're doing for conservation, but at some point sometimes can be quite challenging. What is something challenging about working in conservation, you find?

 

[Michelle]

You find well … sometimes as you say, it feels like you're swimming upstream or your voice is too faint to be heard above the noise of everything else going on and trying to achieve something. In the banding office, we have a motto Never give up and no matter how challenging a task is, giving up is a sure way to fail.

 

[Erica]

Michelle, thank you so much for coming on the show. I've learned so much and you've inspired me to work for conservation not, in conservation. I think that's a really special, special way to look at it. When to band and when not to band, I had no idea that it was that specific in that particular. And there's so much thought that goes into not banding and how you really need that data.

 

[Erica]

And I'm excited to look at the Falcon database and see what – start looking around me and see what birds I can see that I can help out with the re-sightings for. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

 

[Michelle]

You're welcome, kia ora.

Transcript for episode 20

[Erica] 
Every episode we talk about work being done behind the scenes by DOC’s technical experts, scientists, rangers and the experts in between.  Kia ora! Ko Erica Wilkinson tēnei. He kōnae ipurangi tēnei, e pā ana ki ngā Sounds of Science. Today we're taking a big picture view of conservation with Mahi Oranga Senior Analyst Aroha Gilling. Kia ora Aroha! 
 
[Aroha] 
Kia ora Erica! 
 
[Erica] 
Aroha is an academic and experienced Treaty Ranger. Her and her team provide crucial guidance and education for Department of Conservation, Te Papa Atawhai to help us be a good treaty partner. She's also a mega fan of all creatures, big and small, in the Rangitahi Molesworth Recreation Reserve. We are so fortunate to have Aroha here on the show today to share some of her knowledge and her kōrero. 
 
[Erica] 
Do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners? 
 
[Aroha] 
Kia ora. Ngā mihi kia koutou katoa. He uri ahau ō Te Whānau-ā-Apanui, Whakatōhea me Ngāi Tahu hoki. Ko Aroha Gilling taku ingoa.  
 
Kia ora, I’m Aroha and I’m a descendant of Te Whānau-ā-Apanui, Whakatōhea me Ngāi Tahu hoki.  
 
[Erica] 
Welcome. It’s wonderful to have you here. So first up, would you tell me a bit about your role at DOC Te Papa Atawhai? 
  
[Aroha] 
Well, currently I've got two roles. So I'm seconded at the moment to the Mahi Oranga treaty team, which is a nationally based team, and we're working on making the treaty settlements visible. So the same way that biodiversity work, heritage work is recorded in a big database and generates tasks well, eventually treaty work will work the same way. 
 
[Aroha] 
But then I also have another role and my day-to-day role is the Treaty Settlement Ranger, the Senior Treaty Settlement Ranger for Te Tau Ihu, or the Northern South Island. 
 
[Erica] 
Brilliant. What does a treaty ranger do? 
 
[Aroha] 
Everything, absolutely everything! Um, I like to think about my job as kind of 360 degrees. So if you start at one point of the circle and look outwards I'm responsible for working with our own staff to help them develop skills and expand on the skills they already have to work well with our treaty partner with iwi, hapū and whānau. Turn a wee bit further around the circle and I'm responsible for seeing that DOC is meeting our treaty obligations as stated in the Settlement Act. 
 
[Aroha] 
Keep going and I work alongside iwi often in a support role for one of the other key Māori roles within Te Papa Atawhai DOC. And then you keep going again and I work out in the community helping our community partners learn about working with iwi, hapū and whānau. 
 
[Erica] 
Wow. That must be an incredibly varied and rewarding role to be doing. 
 
[Aroha] 
It's incredibly exciting. It's very challenging. And sometimes I put my head in my hands and wonder what on earth I've got myself into. 
 
[Erica] 
I’m sure you're doing a wonderful job. So what's unique about the responsibility for us Te Papa Atawhai with regards to the treaty? Can you talk me through that? 
 
[Aroha] 
Sure. It's all rooted in having one of the most, well, one of the strongest treaty statements in an act. So the Act that governs the mahi or the work that we do is the Conservation Act 1987. And section four of the Conservation Act says this act shall so be interpreted and administered as to give effect to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. 
 
[Aroha] 
So the real crunch in that sentence is the ‘shall’. It means we have to do it. We have to find a way to bring the treaty to life. And the principles of the treaty to life in the work that we do. 
 
[Erica] 
Wow, that's fascinating. And the give effect line, is that important as well? 
 
[Aroha] 
It is. Give effect--I like to think of as making the treaty principles come to life, put them into operation, make them real, make them meaningful. 
 
[Erica] 
So sometimes there's a perception that science, conservation and Mātauranga Māori are worlds apart or that they can't align. But there are plenty of experts saying that that's not the case. Is that an attitude that you encounter in your work? 
 
[Aroha] 
It's certainly something I'm aware of and I've been following very closely a lot of the discussions around this, because to me, an integrated approach to conservation means Western science and Mātauranga Māori. Not one subservient to the other, both working in partnership. And I look to people like Rereata Makiha and Rangi Matamua and I look at bodies of knowledge that they are retelling and reintroducing generations to. 
 
[Aroha] 
And that knowledge has been built up over centuries of close observation of the natural environment and not only close observation but observations for survival and for flourishing. So there is just so much that can be learned from that kind of close observation and learning over hundreds and hundreds of years that can't be dismissed. I think that Mātauranga should never be regarded as an add on or a body of knowledge to be co-opted or distilled by Western science. 
 
[Aroha] 
I would like to see Western science learn to respect Mātauranga and its practitioners, and learn how to work alongside these people …. because I think that my ancestors, my tīpuna weren’t fools, they knew how to live and prosper in the natural environment. 
 
[Erica] 
Before your work as the Senior Treaty Settlements Ranger, you spent a lot of time in training and education. Can you tell us a bit about that? 
 
[Aroha] 
Sure. I've spent about two decades working in tertiary education, primarily as a treaty educator, and I've worked across a number of disciplines. But the main focus of my mahi was in social work and health and wellbeing providers. So two decades of that has helped me refine my craft and I started out as a very raw presenter and slowly built up a base of skills and knowledge that's eventually brought me to Te Papa Atawhai and to the roles that I have today. 
 
[Erica] 
And in the education space, I've heard that you run into something called Tikanga bloopers. Is that something that happens a lot? 
 
[Aroha] 
I think it is. I think it's really common. Tikanga bloopers, the term, was coined by a colleague of mine, and it's a way of explaining those common mistakes that we all make when we're interacting cross-culturally. But the next step is what do we do with it after we've made the mistake? And that's kind of the body of knowledge around Tikanga bloopers. 
 
[Aroha] 
We're all going to make mistakes. I've made some stellar ones. In fact, I've got a photo to memorialize one of the ones that I made with myself and the then… he was Attorney-General and I think he was the Minister of Finance and possibly Minister of Treaty Settlements, let’s throw that all in, Michael Cullen and the blooper is in fact the photo. 
 
[Aroha] 
I had my then husband with me at Maraenui on the East Coast during the seabed and foreshore meetings with the Crown. So Parekura Horomia and Michael Cullen came around to speak to iwi and hapū across the country. And I hadn't thought to, you know, explain the tikanga of a pōwhiri or the welcoming ceremony to my husband or to talk him through what was expected of him. 
 
[Aroha] 
I just sort of thought, well let's be frank, I was overwhelmed and I just sort of hoped that we'd get through it. And halfway through the pōwhiri, so as they’re coming up the hongi and harirū line to shake hands and mihi to each other, as Michael Cullen drew near to me. My husband darted out of the line and took out a camera and took a photo of the whole event. And the look of horror – I still remember the look of horror on my mother's face to this day.  
 
But that's a tikanga blooper. And I guess the important thing about understanding them is that often our staff will experience things like that, and there's no malice intended, but the embarrassment of the event can often induce paralysis so people get too frightened to do anything. And part of the education I do and help to contribute to across the educational packages that we deliver is learning how to get past that. 
 
[Aroha] 
Use what you learned and move on. So, yeah, and I've had to do a fair amount of it myself. 
 
[Erica] 
That's so important. I feel like you need to be able to fail in order to progress. Right? You need to not make a scared of that. 
 
[Aroha] 
Absolutely. 
 
[Erica] 
So what does a typical day look like for you now? It sounds like there are no typical days, but give us an example. 
 
[Aroha] 
Well, as I'm still seconded to Mahi Oranga treaty, a lot of what I'm doing is meetings and training. But a typical day as a treaty ranger is something quite different. You can never tell what's going to happen. So it might be something like going on a trip to support our Kuia and Kaumatua as they travel across the rohe or the region that we live in. 
 
[Aroha] 
It might be helping out in an emergency response, supporting the iwi participation in the emergency response. But I think the thing that really stands out for me are those beautiful moments that just catch you by surprise and it's things like watching the face of the Kuia and the Kaumatua as they get to go somewhere that they haven't been for a long time like Onetahua Farewell Spit. 
 
[Aroha] 
Or where you're able to help them go and see somewhere spectacular like Rangitoto or D’Urville Island. So those all require, you know, sort of DOC support to get there, whether that's in four wheel drives, whether it's a long trip along the Farewell Spit in Golden Bay. And we can do that for them. 
 
[Aroha] 
We've got the resources and the staff and we're able to take them there to see these things and be part of the whenua and connect with it. 
 
[Erica] 
You’re a highly regarded treaty academic and DOC benefits hugely from your expertise. How did you get into this field of work? 
 
[Aroha] 
I think I can track it back to when I was about 12, and I think that was when we first interacted with the social studies curriculum. I've probably just dated myself with that statement. And we had an introduction to the Treaty of Waitangi and it wasn't a good introduction. Even at 12 I was absolutely certain there must be more to the story. 
 
[Erica] 
Mmhmm. 
 
[Aroha] 
So I remember going to the library and getting out about six books that all mentioned the treaty, and they were appalling. At 12 I could tell they were appalling. But I think that's kind of where it started. And it persisted. It's persisted my entire life, to be honest. And I still remember the excitement when Claudia Orange first published her book which was a published form of her doctoral thesis, and it was really exciting. 
 
[Aroha] 
For the first time, there was really good quality information from a really credible author. And the other one that I really loved that I remember from, I think oh I can't even date that one, some time in the eighties maybe? Was Ka Whawhai Tonu Matou [Struggle Without End] by Ranginui Walker. So really exciting to get those kinds of books. One from a Māori author, one from a pākehā author that helped to build that picture of what I'd sensed as a 12 year old. 
 
[Aroha] 
That there was far more to the story than we were being told. So that's kind of how I started. I cut my teeth on workshops in the nineties which wasn't easy, and some of them were horrific. I still remember some of them today, but each time I did a tough one or a good one, I learned something and slowly I've built up this kete of knowledge about delivering this kind of education. 
 
[Erica] 
That's pretty incredible. And Claudia Orange, I think won the Prime Minister's Literary Achievement Award last year. So I just love that it's still, she’s still being recognized for that non-fiction work. And what do you like most about your work? Is there something you can pinpoint? 
 
[Aroha] 
Well it was those moments of wonders – of wonder, sorry. That's kind of all I can think of to call them. I'll give you some illustrations of what I meant by that. I think of sitting in the hot pools at Awakeri just outside of Whakatāne, with a group of our staff listening to one of the local iwi narrate their kōrero about stars, and you're looking up through the steam rising off the hot pools at the stars right there in the sky. 
 
[Aroha] 
Another one from the same trip was sitting on the spine of Moutohorā or Whale Island actually watching whales transit by and listening to Te Kei Merito talking. 
Other examples, listening to Uncle Joe Harawira teaching our staff about the Māori perspective on the beginning of human life on a hot summer day on Otamahua or Quail Island in Whakaraupō, Littleton Harbour. 
 
[Aroha] 
So, you know, it's that magic of connecting with the natural environment, but connecting with it through that māori lens. I think that's the highlight of my job. 
 
[Erica] 
You make it sound so magical like that. And Joe Harawira is such a superstar, isn't he? 
 
[Aroha] 
Yeah, he's great. 
 
[Erica] 
One of my favourite conservation questions to ask is what is a species that you really love. 
 
[Aroha] 
Oh one species, I couldn't possibly pick one [Erica]! Well let's see. Actually my story about the species that I really care about or two of them anyway starts back at Onetahua marae in Golden Bay. So there's the whare there Te Ao Marama, the house was – the decoration of it was overseen by Robyn Slow who is a wonderful local artist and part of the marae whanau. And some of the images that he depicted there really got me curious. 
 
[Aroha] 
So one of the images that occurs in some of the panels are something known as the Clifton Spiders. Now basically it's an albino spider that's blind and the size of a dinner plate. I've always wanted to see one. I really have. I've spent a lot of time clambering around looking for them, and I've only ever seen their spider webs. 
 
[Aroha] 
So they have to go on my list. And another one that I saw for the first time illustrated on the walls of Te Ao Marama was the Powelliphanta snail. Now I have actually seen them, and I just think in they’re most beautiful things with those burnished brown shells. And I have to admit that I quite like the notion that they're carnivorous and that they eat worms by sucking them up a bit like we eat pasta. 
 
[Erica] 
Have you seen that clip of one doing it? 
 
[Aroha] 
Yeah I have. I sent it to friends all over the world. 
 
[Erica] 
Look what we've got. 
 
[Aroha] 
Of course I've got a bird on my list as well. 
 
[Erica] 
Go on. 
 
[Aroha] 
It’s the tarapirohe or the black-fronted tern. And I got to know them on Rangitahi Molesworth, or the Molesworth Recreation Reserve. And I think what appeals to me most about them is – it's actually the way they look, it's a very shallow reason. But they've got these little black skullcaps that remind me of World War One flying cats and so that’s how I use – that's the kind of marker I use to identify them. 
 
[Aroha] 
So they’re the one bird that I'm absolutely, definitely sure I've got right. So I look for the little grey feathers and the little black skullcap. 
 
[Erica] 
Easy to find, surely. And aren't they the ones that dive bomb you when you get too close to their nest? So it's so it's so apt for their little skullcap. 
 
[Aroha] 
Yeah, they do. Yeah. And they're struggling. They're under serious threat. But my colleagues from South Marlborough have been working alongside International Wildlife Management to enhance their habitat and give them a fighting chance. 
 
[Erica] 
Oh, fantastic. And I feel like there's really a theme with your favourite species, perhaps. So seeing as you've spent a lot of time there, what's your favourite memory of being in the Rangitahi Molesworth Recreation Reserve? 
 
[Aroha] 
Yes, it is a place I'm incredibly fond of. My – one of my colleagues in Nelson, after I first went there, looked at me and said “Oh look, you're falling in love.” And he was absolutely right. I have most definitely fallen in love with Rangitahi Molesworth. Actually a favourite memory was a Christmas time memory from this year. 
 
[Aroha] 
And it's just one of those – once again, it's one of those moments of wonder. I was just driving back from doing something up at Sedgemere, which is one part of the reserve, and we came across these three men halfway up a scree slope and they had a camera and I thought, oh, I bet that's interesting. Let’s stop and find out. 
 
[Aroha] 
So we pulled up and wound the window down and called one over, he looked slightly panicked. And I was like “you look like you're doing something interesting there. What's going on?” And what they were doing was that they were photographing something called a pen wiper. And a pen wiper is this amazing, fleshy kind of – I think they call it a fleshy herb. 
 
[Aroha] 
It looks like it should be part of the succulent family, but it's not really. It's one of those incredible plants that you only get to see every two to three years. It lives on scree slopes. And the botanists, I think, call it a transient plant because it's not always in the same place. They take quite a long time to mature, which could be the reason you only see them every two or three years. 
 
[Aroha] 
And they have a really distinctive, highly fragrant flower. But the best bit is why they're called a pen wiper. So they were named after the strange contraptions that Victorian England made to wipe their quill pens on, which was essentially a bunch of rags tied around a stick. So if you can imagine a big bunch of rags wound around a stick, then you've got the basic shape of a pen wiper. 
 
[Erica] 
You've done a lot of work over the years delivering Te Pukenga Atawhai, the Māori  induction course. Can you tell us a bit about what this is and your role there? 
 
[Aroha] 
Sure. This is the wonderful course that was started, oh, must have been in the eighties when they first designed it and that was people like Te Kei Merito and Joe Harawira, involved in that. Dave Para I think was on board at that point. 
 
[Aroha] 
And so they came up with this notion that in order to support our staff to interact more respectfully with iwi, hapū and whānau, that we needed to be providing a consistent education program. So they went out and developed this training program. It's delivered across four kāwai, and the kāwai are broken down into little bits of information that you can learn and interact with and reflect upon. 
 
[Aroha] 
So the four sections are interacting with whānau, hapū and iwi, values and beliefs, Te Tiriti o Waitangi and systems and structures. So that first visit to Ōtākou marae I was talking about, that was my first Te Pukenga Atawhai ever and I was really lucky because the guest speaker in the Te Tiriti o Waitangi section was Professor Jacinta Ruru whose well known across, well internationally for the role that she played in the personhood of the Whanganui River and Te Urewera. So I have been privileged enough to go on to present the Te Tiriti o Waitangi section at I think 14 or 15 Te Pukenga Atawhai in the five years I've been with the department. 
 
[Aroha] 
Yeah, it's a real privilege to watch our staff learn. And I think one of the things I really like is that Te Papa Atawhai staff are already passionate about their particular area, so it's not a big leap for them when you introduce them to good quality knowledge. It's not a big leap to be passionate about that as well. 
 
[Erica] 
Hearing you talk about Te Tiriti o Waitangi, it’s quite a life changing experience, there’s often a lot of emotion. Is that a common reaction? 
 
[Aroha] 
It is, because essentially we're challenging long held notions about Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the Treaty of Waitangi, the principles of the treaty. I think I touched on the notion that the education around this hasn't been great. There's been some wonderful teachers and of course we've just lost one of the best, Moana Jackson. And so, you know, and ngā mihi kia Moana. He was a real inspiration, but outside of people like Moana, like Ranginui Walker, quite often this hasn't been taught well. 
 
[Aroha] 
And often when you are presenting new information that challenges people's beliefs, it's quite a painful process to go through. So it is very evocative and it does bring up a lot of emotions because often we're asking people to put aside things that their parents have told them, their grandparents have told them, things they believed were true. And listen to a different narrative. 
 
[Erica] 
Mm. I was lucky enough to be at the Predator Free Summit last year, and I heard Dr Melanie Mark-Shadbolt talk about the treaty, what the treaty promises and it's contextualized it a bit more for me and absolutely blew my mind. I remember scribbling things down like the queen got married four days after the treaty was signed, you know, I just I had no idea. 
 
[Erica] 
I don't remember learning this when we were watching castaway in social studies. Yeah. It was a bit frustrating but also there's an expiry date to blaming your education. You've got to find out for yourself I guess. And so we've got a scenario for you. So imagine you're in a lecture hall, you've got 30 eager minds ready for you. What's the coolest conservation story you can think of to hook them in? 
 
[Aroha] 
Actually, I'm going to be very naughty in pinch one that is going to appear on a BBC documentary in about October. So, you know, apologies to David Attenborough, but I'm going to knock it out from under him. 
 
[Erica] 
Copyright Aroha Gilling. 
 
[Aroha] 
So I'm based in the Nelson Regional Office and we have a series called The DOC Talk and this has been going for two or three years now.  
 
[Aroha] 
Where each person in the office does a half hour update about something they've been working on or something they’re passionate about. So last week's was one of our senior advisors Graeme Elliott. Graeme's an extremely good storyteller, and he was talking about his and his partner, Kath's volunteer work over summer, where they go down to the Antipodes and they monitor the same section of the island, looking at the wandering albatross. 
 
[Aroha] 
And they've been doing this for a long, long time. But it was this one little story that really captured my imagination. So in terms of fishing, there's a whole lot of regulations about ways that fishing boats need to mitigate the damage they do to things like creatures, like the wandering albatross. But in international waters, it's much harder to monitor those boats and see that they're actually using the mitigation techniques. 
 
[Aroha] 
And so a lot of birds are lost to bycatch. So on the Antipodes there's a lot of these old male birds who have had partners and then they've successfully breed with them. But they come back and their partner's gone. They've been part of the bycatch. And these poor old boys, they're just lonely and looking for their partner. 
 
[Aroha] 
And he had this, this photo of a male wandering albatross standing forlornly by his nest site on a cliff top. And the younger female birds, they might check these old boys out, but they don't really want one of the old fellas. They want one of the hot young fellas. And so these old boys get passed over year after year after year. 
 
[Erica] 
Oh, no. 
 
[Aroha] 
So what they've observed happening is the old boys are starting to peer up with each other. And then the next shot he put up were these two old wandering Albatross boys paired up on their nest together for company. 
 
[Erica] 
Oh, that's my favourite wildlife story ever. 
 
[Aroha] 
Really its Graeme’s, not mine, I pinched but it was just such a wonderful story. 
 
[Erica] 
Oh, what a story. I just. That took a turn that I didn't expect and I'm so here for it. I love hearing things about that. And with Wandering Albatross, they can go years without touching land. There's just so many incredible native species facts that just blow your mind. Any, any native species fact that blew your mind when you learned it? 
 
[Aroha] 
It's probably not quite as mind blowing as the wandering albatross. But I've always had this thing about the scree skinks, it’s a Rangitahi Molesworth story again. I always thought they looked like little dragons, but I became even more attached to them when I learnt that sometimes when they're threatened, they dive into a puddle. 
 
[Erica] 
Do they? 
 
[Aroha] 
They do! I just found there's something so transporting and entertaining about these little brown dragons plunging into a puddle. 
 
[Erica] 
Oh, that's – I think the mountain stone wētā, when it gets attacked, it pretends to be dead and it throws up on itself. Oh, buddy. 
 
[Aroha] 
Oh sometimes you wonder about adaptability. Has it really worked?  
 
[Erica] 
You’re not really helping yourself, come on…  
 
[Erica] 
I bet! What's something that you wish more people knew about your work? 
 
[Aroha] 
Let me see, I have to have a wee think about that one. Actually, I think it has to do with visitor behaviour. So I spend a lot of time on Rangitahi Molesworth Recreation Reserve, and I volunteer at Christmas as the camp host. I work there throughout the year, often going to visit with Ngāti Kurī of Kaikōura and my colleagues from South Marlborough. 
 
[Aroha] 
So I know it pretty well. But this year I noticed there was a real change in the way people were interacting with the environment. And something I'd really like to see is people learning about a place before they go there. So Rangitahi Molesworth is high country, there's an unsealed road all the way through it. It's not a state highway, you can't get the AA to come and rescue you if you drive off the side of the road. 
 
[Aroha] 
There’s sharp turns, blind corners, steep drop offs. It's hardly got any road marking and there's no corner dairy halfway through. So quite a thing I see quite a lot of us people that don't come prepared for that kind of environment. I'd really like people to do their research, find out where they're going, take plenty of water, food and other appropriate gear so that they are well prepared and safe and there's all sorts of other things too. 
 
[Aroha] 
This is a really special environment, Rangitahi Molesworth. We've got over 70 threatened plant species there, so I would love to see people treat that environment well, and not ride their motorbikes on the shale and not ride the motorbikes and the four wheel drive vehicles off the roads. Stick to the campsites. Just that one, use the loos – what is it? Poo in the loo! Please not all over the place. 
 
[Aroha] 
Take your rubbish home with you and look after the important historical places like the cottages. Yeah. 
 
[Erica] 
That's very good advice that kind of know before you go and also that weather watch stuff that I feel like people don't quite take into account and then get stuck. 
 
[Aroha] 
Yeah. I quite often hear the farm staff on the radio saying someone's left a gate open. And that can set the farm operation back by hours and hours and hours as they recover lost stock.  
 
[Erica] 
So I guess when we're talking about what's something you wish more people would do, it’s –  
 
[Aroha] 
Their homework. 
 
[Erica] 
Yeah, their homework! Not difficult.  
 
Working in conservation can be challenging and working in the treaty space can be challenging. What kind of thing keeps you going? 
 
[Aroha] 
The opportunity to combat racism, to contribute to people learning something new, and hopefully changing an attitude. Helping to build allies for iwi hapū and whānau across the country. I think that's really important. And engaging people with good quality information. So I think we've got quite a sophisticated audience these days who can get information from all sorts of different sources really quickly. 
 
[Aroha] 
So one of the things that I like to be part of is providing good quality information from good sources. 
 
[Erica] 
For people at home listening, realizing they don't know enough about Te Tiriti. Are they any recommendations on resources they could start with? 
 
[Aroha] 
I'm a book lover so I'm starting with books. And I can't go past Claudia Orange, once again, an illustrated history of the Treaty of Waitangi. It's accessible, the information's great and easy to digest. And then if you like that one, go the next step. Get the textbook. Another one I think is a great piece of writing is, I think I've already mentioned it, Ranginui Walker’s Ka Whawhai Tonu Matou, Struggle Without End.  
 
[Aroha] 
This is a really important book because it was one of the first histories authored by a māori writer and it's stood up well over time. And for a more contemporary book, I think you can't go past the Treaty of Waitangi Companion, Māori and Pakeha from Tasman to Today. And that’s Vincent O'Malley and that's for the people that like the bigger story. This is a great book, it not only has that kind of standard timeline that you would see in a treaty book, but it tells you the wider context of events in our country when something happens. 
 
[Aroha] 
It looks at key documents, it's got photographs, it’s got quotes. It's one of those books you can pick up and you can read a bit and you think, “well, I never knew that when it was happening.” So a good example of that would be the pine on One Tree Hill being cut down or what's known as He Taua, the events surrounding the clash between māori protesters and engineering students at Auckland University. So yeah, it really pads that history out. 
 
[Erica] 
I've got such a list to go to the library for. That's great. Thank you very much. And such a breadth as well.  
 
Thank you so much for your time Aroha, and your generosity with your expertise. I hope people have learned a lot, I know I have.  

[Aroha] 
You're welcome, Erica. 

[Erica] 
Thank you for listening, I’m your host Erica Wilkinson and this has been the DOC Sounds of Science Podcast. This show is available wherever you get your podcasts, or you can stream it off our website, doc.govt.nz. This podcast is produced by Jayne Ramage with sound and editing by Laura Honey [and Lucy Holyoake]. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and show our hard-working guests some love. Ka kite.